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I played alto and tenor for about a decade and took private lessons. I started on clarinet to help me better learn the sax. I curled my lip over my teeth because I was taught that way. Like you said if you take your lip off of your teeth it's harder to control. It will make you out of pitch and sometimes even sqeel if you really get into a song. I originally played that way but was corrected.
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Personal Experience
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enkerli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTtB48faUQY
If you like written instructions, the "Saxman" bolded this on his website in regards to your mouth position
http://www.saxman.co.nz/sax-play.htm
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1. Form an "O" or "Ou" position, evenly around the mouthpiece.
2. Turn corners into the mouthpiece while pulling down slightly.
3. Drop jaw from the hinges (near ears). The jaw must be relaxed.
4. The jaw and lower teeth pull away from the reed, while the lower lip lifts up onto the reed in the opposite direction. (like exaggerating the letter F)
This dynamic of the jaw, lower lip and teeth working the reed with just the correct amount of opposite tension, is one of the most important elements in playing the saxophone. Perhaps the saxophone embouchure can better be described as an "Ouf" position.
5. If the position described in step 4 is correct, it should create an opening in your mouth when playing, as if there were a ping-pong ball in your mouth.
6. Bottom lip must be rolled in enough to create a good cushion to work the reed, but too much will damage the ton and your lip. Don't swallow your lip. Just go by the natural formation you get when saying "F".
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I've personally never played the Sax, but you can't go wrong with the "Saxman" can you?
Source(s):
http://www.saxman.co.nz/sax-play.htm
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Finally attempting to play the saxophone
· Put straphook through ring on back of saxophone
· Place your right hand thumb under thumbrest (a few inches below the straphook)
· Place left hand first finger on the B key - (this is the one just above the little key (see illustration)
· Curl lower lip back over lower teeth
· Place top teeth on top of mouthpiece about half an inch back from the tip so that the reed rests on your lower lip
· Blow
· You did book a proper lesson didn’t you? If not at least find a good tutor book or DVD.
http://www.petethomas.co.uk/learn-to-play-saxophone.html
Which Suits You?
First place the mouthpiece in your mouth (try it without the saxophone) with your top teeth on the mouthpiece and bring your bottom teeth up naturally without any facial contortions (it helps if you do this looking into a mirror) and keeping your bottom lip in its normal position. Do the teeth come up just inside the lower lip or do they slide up past it so that, if you continued to bring them up, they would contact the reed? If the teeth sit comfortably inside the lip the normal lip method will probably suit you. If the teeth miss the lip then you should turn the lip over, just enough to find the teeth, and use the closed lip method. There should be a minimal amount of turning in required. Do not exaggerate this as a minor adjustment is all that is usually required. In both methods, the idea is to provide a resilient cushion for the reed assisted by the teeth.
sources:
http://www.bobrk.com/saxfaq/2.17.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101190800AAH1RoU
A few ideas to get started;
1. Assuming that all of the pads are leak proof, play a low G.
2. Bring the lower lip back over the bottom teeth so that more upper skin below the lip line area is pressing gently against the reed. Depending on the width of your lip, you may have more, or less, of the skin below the lip line against the reed. If you have a wide lower lip, this can work to your benefit. If you have a thin lower lip, more meat on the reed from the area below the lip line may be needed.
3. Take a little more m/p into the mouth and relax the jaw more than you would normally do in your standard embouchure setting.
4. Play the G. Relax and do not blow hard. Play a soft, yet full tone. Keep adjusting the lower lip until you are getting a little mix of air around the corners of the mouth with the tone. Not a lot of air (which is optional) but just enough to make the lower jaw ands corners of the mouth relax. If you can’t get a little air around the corners, no problem. It works for some and not others and is not vital to play the subtone. In place of that, you will probably get some air in your tone which is fine since many players get a mix of air and sound to make it sweet. The idea is to counteract the embouchure that calls for the “tight smile/flat lips” approach used by trumpet players to get the buzz.
5. Play G to F and hold the note long. Keep adjusting and think “whisper.”
6. Now G to F to E and so on.
7. When you get to low D and C, the note may crack and jump an octave. This tells you that you need more lip over the teeth and to relax the jaw. Some players will “lift” the horn slightly on low D and below to take the pressure off the lower jaw. It can help but not absolutely vital.
8. Repeat this over and over. G to F to E to D to low C holding and maintaining a soft whisper tone.
9. Once you began to get good control of it, you can adjust the volume, corners of the mouth, amount of lip in the mouth, amount of air/tone mix, etc. to develop your own subtone technique.
sources:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive/index.php/t-2105.html
http://www.saxgourmet.com/PaulCoatsArticles/beginner03.htm
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Closed method. This method is advised where the bottom teeth are back in the mouth or where the lower lip protrudes when you adopt your normal expression, making it difficult to bring your bottom teeth up into the lower lip. Do not jut the jaw forward to find the lip, but turn the lower lip over slightly in order to cover the bottom teeth. The idea is to form a cushion for the reed. Turn over only enough lip to feel a comfortable contact.
There should be nothing exaggerated about any formation of the lips around the mouthpiece. If the lower lip is turned over too much, there is too much tension and the contact with the reed loses sensitivity. Experiment a little to see what suits you best.
I would suggest that you try experimenting with your bottom lip position using the mouthpiece alone - with a reed on of course - so that you can look into a mirror to see if everything looks natural and you are not jutting your jaw forward; try to get a sideways view as well as a frontal one. If you are happy with how things look, blow into the mouthpiece to make sure that your cheeks are not ballooning out, then try blowing with just the mouthpiece and crook, again in front of the mirror.
Once you are happy with the way things are going, try a few notes on the sax, avoiding the extreme upper and lower notes for the moment. You should be aiming for a controlled relaxation, or a relaxed control if you would rather put it that way. The same expression should also apply to your fingers, by the way. Try to think of your bottom lip as being above the teeth, rather than on it. Relaxed doesn't mean collapsed. The next stage is rather difficult to describe in print.
Do not move your jaw either backwards or forwards but by dropping the chin very, very slightly, and supporting the reed with the facial muscles rather than the teeth, try to smooth out the bit of your face between the bottom lip and the bottom of your chin. The front of the chin should be flat and not bunched into little dimples. These remarks apply more to the Normal Lip method than The Closed since the closed method tends to put the chin in the correct position. It helps if you think of the syllable "D", as in dream, just as you are bringing the lip up to the mouthpiece. Since the embouchure relies on the musculature of the face for support, the following exercises can be helpful:
1. Place your lips as though you were whistling. The mouth corners automatically move inwards. Now smile as broadly as possible. Then alternate the smile and the whistle, slowly at first, but in regular rhythm. Think "OO" - "EE" alternately.
2. Push the lower lip tightly against the upper. Keep the line of the lips straight but press as hard as possible. Hold for about ten seconds then repeat twenty times.
3. Holding the above position, drop the jaw while keeping the lips pressed together. Now open the mouth maintaining the same relationship between the jaw and the lower lip. Place the forefinger against the lower lip and press down. The lower lip should resist the pressure of the finger and support itself by using the chin muscles.
Many people advocate making an "O" shape of your mouth as you put the mouthpiece into your mouth but I think this comes from the days when sax players tried to visualise their lips as a rubber band around the mouthpiece (but see below). Joe Allard, the American sax teacher advocated keeping the lower lip as straight as possible in order not to curl the reed up at the side but if you have placed your bottom lip at the point where the reed separates from the mouthpiece, I cannot see how it is possible to bend the sides of the reed.
I would like to quote from an article on embouchure which appeared in the Saxophone Journal. "Three basic concepts must be considered in any discussion of tone production. They are Embouchure formation, Throat position and Breath support, and one can easily interpret these concepts through mouthpiece blowing.
The "O" embouchure
The purpose of the basic embouchure is to allow the reed to vibrate in a free manner. The embouchure can be attained in four basic steps.
First form the mouth in the shape of an "O" maintaining a lower lip which is somewhat thick. Do not allow the lower lip to become flat, thin or tight. Two syllables that will help achieve the necessary round formation are "O" or ""OOO". Carefully roll the thick lower lip over the lower teeth with just the mouthpiece, reed and ligature combination i.e. without the sax. Be certain to maintain the "O" shape. Next rest the weight of the head on the top of the mouthpiece with the upper teeth. This will remove excess pressure from the lower lip, enabling the reed to vibrate freely. Bring the remainder of the lips round the mouthpiece, maintaining the basic "O" shape.
Source(s):
http://www.bobrk.com/saxfaq/2.17.html
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also keep in mind that you want your embouchure (your mouth) to apply pressure evenly around the mouthpiece (like a drawstring) so air doesn't leak out and the reed can vibrate freely.
btw... the best way to learn anything on an instrument is to ask your teacher to model it for you. just try to watch and listen to copy what they are doing. its much easier than trying to have someone verbally describe what they do. our non-verbal visual and aural discrimination skills are much stronger than we give them credit.
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i have been a music teacher for 14 years
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I hold a degree in music ed. and have played saxophone for 5 years.
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YouTube
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The lower lip, however, serves many functions:
To secure pressure on the vibrating reed
To alter pitch in a performance situation
Slight pressure change for vibrato
To scoop, falloff (glissando), and other "tone bending" ornamentation
When playing, the lower lip should curl up and over the lower teeth, but the teeth should NOT bite into the lower lip. This is easy in the low notes but more difficult in the high notes. For the high register, increase the corner pressure (whistle formation) to keep the pitch in the upper octave. The lower lip should merely act as a cushion to the reed. Make sure that when you play, you can see some of the red of your lower lip. If you can see none, you are either taking too much mouthpiece or too much lip into your mouth and thus rendering the muscle useless.
NOTE: You should never feel pinching pain in the lower lip resulting from biting. Biting is not an option when playing the saxophone because it can destroy sensitive nerves that are used to subconsciously fine-tune during a performance. You should, however, feel muscle fatigue after extended playing. This is a sign that the muscle is working and will become stronger.
Be sure to always "hold on from the corners". Try your best not to bunch the chin muscles, as this tends to push the lower lip deeper into the mouth. Eventually this will not be a problem.
Overall, the embouchure should be much like a whistle formation: chin relaxed and flat, and lower jaw relaxed but firm; corners drawn in to the center. Add to this whistle a slight curling of the lower lip over the lower teeth to cushion the reed, and a pressure from the upper lip onto the mouthpiece. Do the aforementioned two exercises daily and you will notice slow but beneficial practice.
The formation of the embouchure is very much akin to sucking one's thumb. The formation of the muscles is almost exactly the same but with increased pressure on the mouthpiece (from upper lip and corners) and the reed (from the lower lip).
TECHNIQUE
The fingers should be arched over the keys. For example, rest your hand on a flat surface and relax it. Note the curvature of the fingers. This should be exactly how your fingers look on a saxophone. The biggest problem finger is the left hand ring finger which even professionals tend to keep straight. With regular attention to arched fingers, these problems will be eliminated.
The purpose of arching the fingers is to be able to move faster and with more fluidity and relaxed motion. Remember, when we relax, ideas flow faster and thus notes come faster into the horn, whether improvised or practiced. The purpose is also to conserve motion. The fingers should be moved from the first joint, where the finger connects to the hand, with as little pressure as possible. Try not to move the second joint or even worse, the third, as these apply great pressure that is wasted energy and impedes free-flowing motion. In extreme cases, such squeezing can put your mechanism out of adjustment!
Always rest the fingers on the keys when not in use. If you are playing a G and are going to go down to a low C (4 right-hand fingers), they will only move fast enough if they are relaxed and all lying directly in the keys. There is no need to slap the keys down from 5 inches away. On the contrary, a very light, quick motion should be used.
In reference to the finger position I will note the only known video of Charlie Parker. He flies up and down the horn with rhythmic and melodic virtuosity but his fingers barely move! This is a result of constant practice and attention to minor details; if his fingers were slapping the keys very hard, he would not be able to move that fast with such fluency.
There are certain aspects of technique that are problems for most saxophonists but overall, can be easily fixed. For example, the horrors that sometimes occur in fast passages involving middle Bb and the surrounding notes. A simple knowledge of the four fingerings of Bb, the two fingerings of middle C, the various false fingerings of the surrounding notes, and the many "trick" ways to move between the octave without noticeable quality change can help you to eliminate these problems. I will not get into details because there are many resources that can help you in regard to technique.
TONE
There are three parts to the saxophone tone: edge, core tone, and shadow tone (some have different names for these but I find these to be the easiest to remember). By playing a low Bb very loud up against a wall, you may be able to hear a second octave F (the perfect fifth + 8) in the background. This is an overtone. If you play an open tip mouthpiece with a soft reed, you will have more edge and thus more overtones. Edge is characterized by a "buzz" in the sound such as the sound of David Sanborn or Michael Brecker, who are probably the finest edge-tone and overtone players. Core tone is the regular tone of the saxophone. If you play a closed mouthpiece with a harder reed, the core tone is brought out and the edge nearly disappears. This style was more popular in past years, with players such as Paul Desmond and Cannonball Adderly in the spectrum of dark, core players. The shadow tone can be heard audibly in the background on very low and very high notes, and is very hard to hear specifically because it is masked by the core tone. However, without the shadow tone, the instrument would not sound much like a saxophone anymore. Play just the mouthpiece off of the sax (no shadow tone: duck call!) and then put it back on the sax and play. You should hear a tonal (as opposed to a pitch) difference.
The tone starts in your chest cavity and the shape of the chest cavity largely affects the beginning of the tone. Next the oral cavity, probably the most important aspect of the "wideness" of the tonal waves, and then the mouthpiece which is the "projection chamber" and speeds up the air flow. The mouthpiece is to the tone much like the gun powder is to the bullet. And if you'd like to take this analogy further, your oral cavity and chest cavity are like the factory where the gun powder is produced! Finally the saxophone itself, which, surprisingly, has the least bearing on tone quality. The sax mostly affects intonation (how well in tune one is) and whether the tone is "covered" (low Bb with octave) or "wide" (open C#), or covered and wide in general. The sax itself also affects shadow tones which has commonly attributed qualities of "darkness" and "brightness."
Use breath support (detailed below) and always make sure that the oral cavity is open and relaxed, like when you say "Aahhh" in the lowest baritone note you can sing in tune. Sing this note with a tight oral cavity, and then relax it again. The sound quality of your voice should immediately improve and become more present once the oral cavity is relaxed (think Pavarotti). The same applies to saxophone. Be sure the tongue, when not being used, is flat in the bottom of the mouth.*
To develop fine tone you must consider all of the above things and what follows.
BREATH SUPPORT
It is amazing how many players ask "What is breath support?" and have been playing their whole lives by just letting the air into the instrument. This would be similar to a digger just dropping the shovel into the dirt and expecting it do efficient work and to have control over it.
Breath support basically uses the same muscles used to go to the bathroom, frankly. The abdominal and back muscles are used as well as the chest cavity itself. When one takes a large breath for a long passage, one should inhale first into the lower abdomen and quickly fill up into the chest cavity. This can be practiced, and should be done in the shortest time possible. The abdominal muscles are chiefly used in pushing the air out of the body. A good way to practice breath support is to take a walk. In one step, fill up the chest cavity with air. For the next ten steps, push the air out in an equally displacing pressure so that the pressure is constant. At the eleventh step, let out any leftover air and then breathe in again and repeat. This will help you to develop control of these muscles.
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS support from the abdomen when playing. Even if you are playing softly, the air still needs to have sufficient pressure behind it to have any tonal control. Those who have intonation troubles and transition problems will notice that their intonation immediately improves once they support and blow the air into the instrument. Don't think like you're blowing through it (physically impossible once the tone starts) but like you're blowing as hard as you can at a target right at the tip of the saxophone bell. Good posture is an incredible plus because it expands the chest cavity and abdomen and allows for larger breaths to be taken and greater air support to be used. Thus, regular exercises and stretches in the abdominal and back regions will greatly improve breath support.
EMBOUCHURE
The embouchure is probably the most misused set of muscles in saxophone playing. Most beginners think of a vertical pressure (bite or close to it) but this is NOT the correct way to picture it. Instead visualize a mostly HORIZONTAL embouchure that is also somewhat CIRCULAR. Primarily, the corners of the mouth are used. The best example of this is whistling. A great exercise to work out the embouchure is to first make the biggest smile you can, severely over-stretching the corners outward, and then slowly drawing them in to a whistle formation. Do this 3 sets of 50 reps per day for a few months in addition to regular practice and you will be surprised at your rapid progress. However it will be fruitless if you do not apply this motion to the mouthpiece.
After this you can begin to develop the upper and lower lip muscles, both of which are used in saxophone playing, especially the lower lip. The upper lip serves mainly to secure the air pressure in the oral cavity and should NOT be bitten into by the upper teeth.
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=cGBL5QDtCQM
YOU MAY ALSO LIKE-
1.Saxophone technique----------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone_embouchure
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Answered Question
M$5
December 23, 2008 07:02 AM
In saxophone playing, what do you do with your lower lip?
When I started playing, a while ago, I was placing my lower lip on top of my teeth, with the mouthpiece relatively deep in my mouth. Later on, I was taught to get my lip off my teeth, which seems to give a brighter sound but can be harder to control. As I'm rebuilding my mouthpiece muscles, I'm wondering if I should start from the "oldie" position (on the teeth) or the protruding position (off the teeth).
Edit: I'm mostly looking for answers about personal experience, especially from those who tried both. (I've been playing saxophone for quite a while.)
Edit: I'm mostly looking for answers about personal experience, especially from those who tried both. (I've been playing saxophone for quite a while.)
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| December 23, 2008 10:27 PM |
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Personal Experience
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• Thanks for sharing. This is the kind of feedback from personal experience I was looking for. Though I never squealed while playing with my lip off my teeth, I think the control issue is enough to make continue with "lip over teeth." In fact, I may need less muscle training.
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Other Answers (10)
December 23, 2008 07:06 AM
This might be of some help: http://www.ehow.com/how_909_begin-play-saxophone.html
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enkerli
December 23, 2008 07:36 AM
Not so much, actually. I'm not talking about beginning saxophone.
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December 23, 2008 07:08 AM
This fellow offers a pretty easy/standard video instruction. He says to place your bottom lip over your teeth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTtB48faUQY
If you like written instructions, the "Saxman" bolded this on his website in regards to your mouth position
http://www.saxman.co.nz/sax-play.htm
-----------
1. Form an "O" or "Ou" position, evenly around the mouthpiece.
2. Turn corners into the mouthpiece while pulling down slightly.
3. Drop jaw from the hinges (near ears). The jaw must be relaxed.
4. The jaw and lower teeth pull away from the reed, while the lower lip lifts up onto the reed in the opposite direction. (like exaggerating the letter F)
This dynamic of the jaw, lower lip and teeth working the reed with just the correct amount of opposite tension, is one of the most important elements in playing the saxophone. Perhaps the saxophone embouchure can better be described as an "Ouf" position.
5. If the position described in step 4 is correct, it should create an opening in your mouth when playing, as if there were a ping-pong ball in your mouth.
6. Bottom lip must be rolled in enough to create a good cushion to work the reed, but too much will damage the ton and your lip. Don't swallow your lip. Just go by the natural formation you get when saying "F".
---------
I've personally never played the Sax, but you can't go wrong with the "Saxman" can you?
Source(s):
http://www.saxman.co.nz/sax-play.htm
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December 23, 2008 07:37 AM
I'm not looking for credentials and, if I were, I'm not sure how I would rate this guy. His instructions are decent but I'm looking for something with more thinking about the implications of practise.
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December 23, 2008 07:09 AM
try here for an help Finally attempting to play the saxophone
· Put straphook through ring on back of saxophone
· Place your right hand thumb under thumbrest (a few inches below the straphook)
· Place left hand first finger on the B key - (this is the one just above the little key (see illustration)
· Curl lower lip back over lower teeth
· Place top teeth on top of mouthpiece about half an inch back from the tip so that the reed rests on your lower lip
· Blow
· You did book a proper lesson didn’t you? If not at least find a good tutor book or DVD.
http://www.petethomas.co.uk/learn-to-play-saxophone.html
Which Suits You?
First place the mouthpiece in your mouth (try it without the saxophone) with your top teeth on the mouthpiece and bring your bottom teeth up naturally without any facial contortions (it helps if you do this looking into a mirror) and keeping your bottom lip in its normal position. Do the teeth come up just inside the lower lip or do they slide up past it so that, if you continued to bring them up, they would contact the reed? If the teeth sit comfortably inside the lip the normal lip method will probably suit you. If the teeth miss the lip then you should turn the lip over, just enough to find the teeth, and use the closed lip method. There should be a minimal amount of turning in required. Do not exaggerate this as a minor adjustment is all that is usually required. In both methods, the idea is to provide a resilient cushion for the reed assisted by the teeth.
sources:
http://www.bobrk.com/saxfaq/2.17.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101190800AAH1RoU
A few ideas to get started;
1. Assuming that all of the pads are leak proof, play a low G.
2. Bring the lower lip back over the bottom teeth so that more upper skin below the lip line area is pressing gently against the reed. Depending on the width of your lip, you may have more, or less, of the skin below the lip line against the reed. If you have a wide lower lip, this can work to your benefit. If you have a thin lower lip, more meat on the reed from the area below the lip line may be needed.
3. Take a little more m/p into the mouth and relax the jaw more than you would normally do in your standard embouchure setting.
4. Play the G. Relax and do not blow hard. Play a soft, yet full tone. Keep adjusting the lower lip until you are getting a little mix of air around the corners of the mouth with the tone. Not a lot of air (which is optional) but just enough to make the lower jaw ands corners of the mouth relax. If you can’t get a little air around the corners, no problem. It works for some and not others and is not vital to play the subtone. In place of that, you will probably get some air in your tone which is fine since many players get a mix of air and sound to make it sweet. The idea is to counteract the embouchure that calls for the “tight smile/flat lips” approach used by trumpet players to get the buzz.
5. Play G to F and hold the note long. Keep adjusting and think “whisper.”
6. Now G to F to E and so on.
7. When you get to low D and C, the note may crack and jump an octave. This tells you that you need more lip over the teeth and to relax the jaw. Some players will “lift” the horn slightly on low D and below to take the pressure off the lower jaw. It can help but not absolutely vital.
8. Repeat this over and over. G to F to E to D to low C holding and maintaining a soft whisper tone.
9. Once you began to get good control of it, you can adjust the volume, corners of the mouth, amount of lip in the mouth, amount of air/tone mix, etc. to develop your own subtone technique.
sources:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive/index.php/t-2105.html
http://www.saxgourmet.com/PaulCoatsArticles/beginner03.htm
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December 23, 2008 07:40 AM
We're getting somewhere, though much of these excerpts here deal with beginner tips. But I'm looking for personal experience. What do *you* do with your lower lip?
I've experimented with a variety of lip placement over the years. The "protruding" position required more training in terms of getting my embouchure muscles in shape but it did result in good sonority. As I'm rebuilding my embouchure muscles, I'm wondering if I might just give up the better-sounding position for the benefit of easier control.
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I've experimented with a variety of lip placement over the years. The "protruding" position required more training in terms of getting my embouchure muscles in shape but it did result in good sonority. As I'm rebuilding my embouchure muscles, I'm wondering if I might just give up the better-sounding position for the benefit of easier control.
December 23, 2008 07:30 AM
Normal method. Putting your top teeth on the mouthpiece, bring up your bottom lip naturally. The reed will then rest on the fleshy part of the lip. The lip is not turned out abnormally since this would make it too flabby and the lower teeth could not offer any support to the lip. By bearing down with the top teeth (not too hard) the mouthpiece is pushed down slightly into the bottom lip causing a little ridge to form inside the lip. The lower teeth come up inside that ridge contacting the lip from the top of the lip. The amount will vary with different people as some of us have thin lips and some have thicker lips. The teeth should not cut into the lip. If this happens, you are either putting too much pressure on or there is some sort of irregularity in the teeth which is causing discomfort. Closed method. This method is advised where the bottom teeth are back in the mouth or where the lower lip protrudes when you adopt your normal expression, making it difficult to bring your bottom teeth up into the lower lip. Do not jut the jaw forward to find the lip, but turn the lower lip over slightly in order to cover the bottom teeth. The idea is to form a cushion for the reed. Turn over only enough lip to feel a comfortable contact.
There should be nothing exaggerated about any formation of the lips around the mouthpiece. If the lower lip is turned over too much, there is too much tension and the contact with the reed loses sensitivity. Experiment a little to see what suits you best.
I would suggest that you try experimenting with your bottom lip position using the mouthpiece alone - with a reed on of course - so that you can look into a mirror to see if everything looks natural and you are not jutting your jaw forward; try to get a sideways view as well as a frontal one. If you are happy with how things look, blow into the mouthpiece to make sure that your cheeks are not ballooning out, then try blowing with just the mouthpiece and crook, again in front of the mirror.
Once you are happy with the way things are going, try a few notes on the sax, avoiding the extreme upper and lower notes for the moment. You should be aiming for a controlled relaxation, or a relaxed control if you would rather put it that way. The same expression should also apply to your fingers, by the way. Try to think of your bottom lip as being above the teeth, rather than on it. Relaxed doesn't mean collapsed. The next stage is rather difficult to describe in print.
Do not move your jaw either backwards or forwards but by dropping the chin very, very slightly, and supporting the reed with the facial muscles rather than the teeth, try to smooth out the bit of your face between the bottom lip and the bottom of your chin. The front of the chin should be flat and not bunched into little dimples. These remarks apply more to the Normal Lip method than The Closed since the closed method tends to put the chin in the correct position. It helps if you think of the syllable "D", as in dream, just as you are bringing the lip up to the mouthpiece. Since the embouchure relies on the musculature of the face for support, the following exercises can be helpful:
1. Place your lips as though you were whistling. The mouth corners automatically move inwards. Now smile as broadly as possible. Then alternate the smile and the whistle, slowly at first, but in regular rhythm. Think "OO" - "EE" alternately.
2. Push the lower lip tightly against the upper. Keep the line of the lips straight but press as hard as possible. Hold for about ten seconds then repeat twenty times.
3. Holding the above position, drop the jaw while keeping the lips pressed together. Now open the mouth maintaining the same relationship between the jaw and the lower lip. Place the forefinger against the lower lip and press down. The lower lip should resist the pressure of the finger and support itself by using the chin muscles.
Many people advocate making an "O" shape of your mouth as you put the mouthpiece into your mouth but I think this comes from the days when sax players tried to visualise their lips as a rubber band around the mouthpiece (but see below). Joe Allard, the American sax teacher advocated keeping the lower lip as straight as possible in order not to curl the reed up at the side but if you have placed your bottom lip at the point where the reed separates from the mouthpiece, I cannot see how it is possible to bend the sides of the reed.
I would like to quote from an article on embouchure which appeared in the Saxophone Journal. "Three basic concepts must be considered in any discussion of tone production. They are Embouchure formation, Throat position and Breath support, and one can easily interpret these concepts through mouthpiece blowing.
The "O" embouchure
The purpose of the basic embouchure is to allow the reed to vibrate in a free manner. The embouchure can be attained in four basic steps.
First form the mouth in the shape of an "O" maintaining a lower lip which is somewhat thick. Do not allow the lower lip to become flat, thin or tight. Two syllables that will help achieve the necessary round formation are "O" or ""OOO". Carefully roll the thick lower lip over the lower teeth with just the mouthpiece, reed and ligature combination i.e. without the sax. Be certain to maintain the "O" shape. Next rest the weight of the head on the top of the mouthpiece with the upper teeth. This will remove excess pressure from the lower lip, enabling the reed to vibrate freely. Bring the remainder of the lips round the mouthpiece, maintaining the basic "O" shape.
Source(s):
http://www.bobrk.com/saxfaq/2.17.html
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December 23, 2008 07:46 AM
This is interesting in that it includes personal experience from other saxophonists. What do *you* personally do with your lower lip?
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October 03, 2009 07:33 AM
what does this bit mean please
"contacting the lip from the top of the lip." line 6 from begining
I am whistling / screeching on certain notes esp going up the scale c thru to octave d for example
any ideas ?
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"contacting the lip from the top of the lip." line 6 from begining
I am whistling / screeching on certain notes esp going up the scale c thru to octave d for example
any ideas ?
December 23, 2008 09:04 AM
i make my lower lip thin and lightly cover my bottom teeth with it. if you cover the teeth too much you can constrict the ability of the reed to vibrate which can lead to squeaks. also keep in mind that you want your embouchure (your mouth) to apply pressure evenly around the mouthpiece (like a drawstring) so air doesn't leak out and the reed can vibrate freely.
btw... the best way to learn anything on an instrument is to ask your teacher to model it for you. just try to watch and listen to copy what they are doing. its much easier than trying to have someone verbally describe what they do. our non-verbal visual and aural discrimination skills are much stronger than we give them credit.
Source(s):
i have been a music teacher for 14 years
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December 23, 2008 12:39 PM
Thanks for sharing this. Did you try other lower lip positions, over the years?
Good point about instruction. I do remember the effect of those long sessions with my private teachers. My issue, in this case, is that two teachers have changed my embouchure away from the "lip covering the teeth" position into something which is more protruding. My guess is that we're talking about two traditions of sax playing and, my teachers having been influenced by Deffayet and other French players, the "protruding position" may have to do with French traditions of the classical saxophone. Despite that, I've never been a big fan of the French-style vibrato.
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Good point about instruction. I do remember the effect of those long sessions with my private teachers. My issue, in this case, is that two teachers have changed my embouchure away from the "lip covering the teeth" position into something which is more protruding. My guess is that we're talking about two traditions of sax playing and, my teachers having been influenced by Deffayet and other French players, the "protruding position" may have to do with French traditions of the classical saxophone. Despite that, I've never been a big fan of the French-style vibrato.
December 23, 2008 05:32 PM
i only have tried the lower lip over the teeth. the other more "french" methods probably are more appropriate for classical playing and are probably a bit old-fashioned. i suppose it would be good to know if you were playing in a group or a conductor who wanted that style vibrato. my philosophy is to teach the most mainstream techniques to my students and expose them to the wider performance practice as they progress.
to sum it up playing with more lower lip can limit your flexibility in tone production but is helpful to produce that "french classical sound"
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to sum it up playing with more lower lip can limit your flexibility in tone production but is helpful to produce that "french classical sound"
December 23, 2008 03:23 PM
It has been a long time since I played the saxophone but I had my lower lip covering my teeth. I also chose the less common position of covering my upper teeth with my upper lip. This was because I found the vibration uncomfortable, and I read about that position somewhere as an alternative. I suspect it makes a big difference if you are trying to play classical vs jazz vs some other musical tradition and how much vibrato you like. You might want to discover the method used by the musicians in the style of music you like rather than a teacher.
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December 23, 2008 03:49 PM
You should definitely put your lip over your teeth. Not too far -- part of the "red" should be showing if you look in the mirror -- but it should cover. Biting the reed directly with the teeth could hurt it, and will cause difficulty in control and squeaking. It's also important that you form your lips in a circle around the mouthpiece, with generally even pressure all around. This will help with control too. Draw the corners of your mouth around the mouthpiece (this will take time to develop; at first they will want to spread out and you will notice a bright, honky sound). I hope this works for you.
Source(s):
I hold a degree in music ed. and have played saxophone for 5 years.
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December 23, 2008 08:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74t3kpxT54
Source(s):
YouTube
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December 24, 2008 01:48 PM
http://www.skysun.co.za/saxophones/Saxophone_alto_jupiter_767.jpg The lower lip, however, serves many functions:
To secure pressure on the vibrating reed
To alter pitch in a performance situation
Slight pressure change for vibrato
To scoop, falloff (glissando), and other "tone bending" ornamentation
When playing, the lower lip should curl up and over the lower teeth, but the teeth should NOT bite into the lower lip. This is easy in the low notes but more difficult in the high notes. For the high register, increase the corner pressure (whistle formation) to keep the pitch in the upper octave. The lower lip should merely act as a cushion to the reed. Make sure that when you play, you can see some of the red of your lower lip. If you can see none, you are either taking too much mouthpiece or too much lip into your mouth and thus rendering the muscle useless.
NOTE: You should never feel pinching pain in the lower lip resulting from biting. Biting is not an option when playing the saxophone because it can destroy sensitive nerves that are used to subconsciously fine-tune during a performance. You should, however, feel muscle fatigue after extended playing. This is a sign that the muscle is working and will become stronger.
Be sure to always "hold on from the corners". Try your best not to bunch the chin muscles, as this tends to push the lower lip deeper into the mouth. Eventually this will not be a problem.
Overall, the embouchure should be much like a whistle formation: chin relaxed and flat, and lower jaw relaxed but firm; corners drawn in to the center. Add to this whistle a slight curling of the lower lip over the lower teeth to cushion the reed, and a pressure from the upper lip onto the mouthpiece. Do the aforementioned two exercises daily and you will notice slow but beneficial practice.
The formation of the embouchure is very much akin to sucking one's thumb. The formation of the muscles is almost exactly the same but with increased pressure on the mouthpiece (from upper lip and corners) and the reed (from the lower lip).
TECHNIQUE
The fingers should be arched over the keys. For example, rest your hand on a flat surface and relax it. Note the curvature of the fingers. This should be exactly how your fingers look on a saxophone. The biggest problem finger is the left hand ring finger which even professionals tend to keep straight. With regular attention to arched fingers, these problems will be eliminated.
The purpose of arching the fingers is to be able to move faster and with more fluidity and relaxed motion. Remember, when we relax, ideas flow faster and thus notes come faster into the horn, whether improvised or practiced. The purpose is also to conserve motion. The fingers should be moved from the first joint, where the finger connects to the hand, with as little pressure as possible. Try not to move the second joint or even worse, the third, as these apply great pressure that is wasted energy and impedes free-flowing motion. In extreme cases, such squeezing can put your mechanism out of adjustment!
Always rest the fingers on the keys when not in use. If you are playing a G and are going to go down to a low C (4 right-hand fingers), they will only move fast enough if they are relaxed and all lying directly in the keys. There is no need to slap the keys down from 5 inches away. On the contrary, a very light, quick motion should be used.
In reference to the finger position I will note the only known video of Charlie Parker. He flies up and down the horn with rhythmic and melodic virtuosity but his fingers barely move! This is a result of constant practice and attention to minor details; if his fingers were slapping the keys very hard, he would not be able to move that fast with such fluency.
There are certain aspects of technique that are problems for most saxophonists but overall, can be easily fixed. For example, the horrors that sometimes occur in fast passages involving middle Bb and the surrounding notes. A simple knowledge of the four fingerings of Bb, the two fingerings of middle C, the various false fingerings of the surrounding notes, and the many "trick" ways to move between the octave without noticeable quality change can help you to eliminate these problems. I will not get into details because there are many resources that can help you in regard to technique.
TONE
There are three parts to the saxophone tone: edge, core tone, and shadow tone (some have different names for these but I find these to be the easiest to remember). By playing a low Bb very loud up against a wall, you may be able to hear a second octave F (the perfect fifth + 8) in the background. This is an overtone. If you play an open tip mouthpiece with a soft reed, you will have more edge and thus more overtones. Edge is characterized by a "buzz" in the sound such as the sound of David Sanborn or Michael Brecker, who are probably the finest edge-tone and overtone players. Core tone is the regular tone of the saxophone. If you play a closed mouthpiece with a harder reed, the core tone is brought out and the edge nearly disappears. This style was more popular in past years, with players such as Paul Desmond and Cannonball Adderly in the spectrum of dark, core players. The shadow tone can be heard audibly in the background on very low and very high notes, and is very hard to hear specifically because it is masked by the core tone. However, without the shadow tone, the instrument would not sound much like a saxophone anymore. Play just the mouthpiece off of the sax (no shadow tone: duck call!) and then put it back on the sax and play. You should hear a tonal (as opposed to a pitch) difference.
The tone starts in your chest cavity and the shape of the chest cavity largely affects the beginning of the tone. Next the oral cavity, probably the most important aspect of the "wideness" of the tonal waves, and then the mouthpiece which is the "projection chamber" and speeds up the air flow. The mouthpiece is to the tone much like the gun powder is to the bullet. And if you'd like to take this analogy further, your oral cavity and chest cavity are like the factory where the gun powder is produced! Finally the saxophone itself, which, surprisingly, has the least bearing on tone quality. The sax mostly affects intonation (how well in tune one is) and whether the tone is "covered" (low Bb with octave) or "wide" (open C#), or covered and wide in general. The sax itself also affects shadow tones which has commonly attributed qualities of "darkness" and "brightness."
Use breath support (detailed below) and always make sure that the oral cavity is open and relaxed, like when you say "Aahhh" in the lowest baritone note you can sing in tune. Sing this note with a tight oral cavity, and then relax it again. The sound quality of your voice should immediately improve and become more present once the oral cavity is relaxed (think Pavarotti). The same applies to saxophone. Be sure the tongue, when not being used, is flat in the bottom of the mouth.*
To develop fine tone you must consider all of the above things and what follows.
BREATH SUPPORT
It is amazing how many players ask "What is breath support?" and have been playing their whole lives by just letting the air into the instrument. This would be similar to a digger just dropping the shovel into the dirt and expecting it do efficient work and to have control over it.
Breath support basically uses the same muscles used to go to the bathroom, frankly. The abdominal and back muscles are used as well as the chest cavity itself. When one takes a large breath for a long passage, one should inhale first into the lower abdomen and quickly fill up into the chest cavity. This can be practiced, and should be done in the shortest time possible. The abdominal muscles are chiefly used in pushing the air out of the body. A good way to practice breath support is to take a walk. In one step, fill up the chest cavity with air. For the next ten steps, push the air out in an equally displacing pressure so that the pressure is constant. At the eleventh step, let out any leftover air and then breathe in again and repeat. This will help you to develop control of these muscles.
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS support from the abdomen when playing. Even if you are playing softly, the air still needs to have sufficient pressure behind it to have any tonal control. Those who have intonation troubles and transition problems will notice that their intonation immediately improves once they support and blow the air into the instrument. Don't think like you're blowing through it (physically impossible once the tone starts) but like you're blowing as hard as you can at a target right at the tip of the saxophone bell. Good posture is an incredible plus because it expands the chest cavity and abdomen and allows for larger breaths to be taken and greater air support to be used. Thus, regular exercises and stretches in the abdominal and back regions will greatly improve breath support.
EMBOUCHURE
The embouchure is probably the most misused set of muscles in saxophone playing. Most beginners think of a vertical pressure (bite or close to it) but this is NOT the correct way to picture it. Instead visualize a mostly HORIZONTAL embouchure that is also somewhat CIRCULAR. Primarily, the corners of the mouth are used. The best example of this is whistling. A great exercise to work out the embouchure is to first make the biggest smile you can, severely over-stretching the corners outward, and then slowly drawing them in to a whistle formation. Do this 3 sets of 50 reps per day for a few months in addition to regular practice and you will be surprised at your rapid progress. However it will be fruitless if you do not apply this motion to the mouthpiece.
After this you can begin to develop the upper and lower lip muscles, both of which are used in saxophone playing, especially the lower lip. The upper lip serves mainly to secure the air pressure in the oral cavity and should NOT be bitten into by the upper teeth.
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=cGBL5QDtCQM
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1.Saxophone technique----------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone_embouchure
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