Wow, I'm honored! You chose an answer to your question that you have no way of finding out for yourself. Talk about a paradox! But really, I have enjoyed this conversation, and I'm glad goatsead can understand better what you are getting at. I will however reply to the last few comments before I pass him the ball. I think that the paradox you speak of only exists if you stretch the definition of these concepts to their limit and then attach absolutes to them. You have been doing this quite a bit; for instance, when you said "Also our societies belief that sex and relationships are two entirely different things leads people to the erroneous conclusion that because I want sex from a person that I don't also want a relationship." Why use that in your argument? No one said they are two totally different things; we have all been saying (see goatead's answer) that the CAN cross over (sex with a good friend). You seem to be trying to force them into these paths that you want them to stay in. We understand that you want both. It's pretty clear. We are also saying that you might not get them both right away, so why not work on just one at a time? Practice makes perfect, as they say. To answer your comment aimed at me: what is keeping me from believing it in a specific sense is I do not agree that not getting sex is a cause for compassion; particularly if you are sound in body (limbs) and mind. I would have compassion for someone who didn't have the faculties to get what they wanted, but if you do, they you should be able to. Many people fail most of the time at getting laid; but they don't give up trying. I have faith that if it's what you really want, you can get it, but don't expect it to come hand in hand with the meaningful relationship. As I said, one at a time for now. Re: "I was actually referring to the conflict that some people feel exists between wanting a meaningful relationship and wanting sex. "I'm not sure what you want more: sex or a relationship?" I think in fact that they are deeply related because even non-genital forms of affection between close couples are sexual in nature." Again, your'e confusing sex and intimacy. Sex and intimacy are NOT identical. You cannot interchange their meanings at will. Re: paradox. Fine. Perhaps people ought to (categorically speaking) encourage others' to follow their dreams and "get what they want". Again, I think the responsibility is yours; people often say what they don't mean. So what. That's not going to change; so you have to believe in your own solutions. Yes, I studied philosophy and linguistics in college, and economics. I am very sensitive to exact meanings of things and not bastardizing language to fit the argument (that's how economic theories are created). One other thing: I live in a very new agey community where half the population meditates on a regular basis. Here people willfully go on "purusha" sabbaticals where they are all alone with members of the same sex - sometimes for months or years. Not having sex is considered to strengthen the will and to lead to meaningful relationships based on "higher values". Perhaps this is why I will not pity someone who wants to have sex and can't get it (see above). Then again, as I mentioned earlier, I have had girlfriends who desperately want to get laid. In fact, I've been in the same situation (after a year of intentionally abstaining, then suddenly wanting sex with just about anyone) but I don't think I've ever felt sorry for any of us. I can relate and saying "I can relate, eg: understand/ empathize" is much different from saying "I feel sorry for you". Anyway, that's about it. Good luck!

Hi, i'm sorry i keep asking you questions. What does a "feeling of well being" mean? Isn't that just a feeling that life is good? Can't you be in pain and have a feeling of well being?

I do not study philosophy in college but I am very interested in it. I have my own personal thoughts on why one would not want to go to college but that's a different story all together.

"of course that is what you want a lot of people want that and you have every right to go out and try to get that, don't let the nasty thing people say get you down."

This is the only answer you should be receiving if you are asking intelligent people who are actually analyzing what you are asking. Any one else has a skewed vision because of bias or personal beliefs about the subject. You cannot blame them though, it is easy to get a skewed perception of sex. I think we all understand that very clearly.

It seems to me (correct me if i am wrong) that when it comes to sexual desire or the act of sex, a few people in your life are not the greatest communicators and have confused you and left you thinking the rest of the world is like this. Sex is a very complicated topic and many people who are good at conveying ideas elsewhere, find trouble explaining their feelings on sex and relationships.

The most important part of that quote is this:

"don't let the nasty thing people say get you down."

Really let that sink in on all aspects of life. There will always be someone who does not want to see you succeed in happiness or just in general. Someone could easily think the idea of you asking such "matter-of-fact" questions about sex, makes you weird, also you have admitted to being in-experienced in sex, this is another thing that will make people think your weird. Once someone views you as different than themselves and the people they associated with, they seem to start talking to you in a way they would not want to be talked to.

This is not true with all people, certainly not with me, and I am assuming it is not true with you. it's important to find people who understand you on different levels of communication.

After this pretty high activity question, do you feel more knowledgeable on the subject? or at least did you kind of get what you were looking for?

P.S. I didn't mean sex was like the lottery, i was just comparing the two statements. "I want to have sex" to "I want to win the lottery" both are very desirable.

Hi, easycharles. I apologize but I don't have time to reread all the conversations to find what made me presume you were searching for intimacy. I'm guessing it's because you are concerned with sex and meaningful relationships and you have been drawing parallels between the two, saying they both, being good things, can make your world better. In my opinion, it's intimacy that makes your world better, because I think it's foolish to qualify all sex as good or all relationships as meaningful. That's way oversimplifying reality. Intimacy, like sitting quietly with someone you love, or someone whom you know well and are comfortable with can give you much greater feeling of well-being than either sex or relationships.

Okay. So your assumption is that sex is a good thing, admits of qualities similar to a meaningful relationship, and makes one happy by positively contributing to one's life, which is why others should encourage you to have a good sex life; because ethically it's right to care about others' states of well-being (I would agree with this in a broad sense; see Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments, re: how the principle of empathy can achieve a greater social good. I also wrote a paper on this, re: how empathy can achieve pareto optimality); however, i'm also a libertarian, so I believe that fundamentally it's up to each individual to establish their own foundation of happiness, which can be accomplished by asking for help, as it seems you are doing. "I want what is good for me and will make my world a better place. I don't see how these things can be inherently in conflict with one another." Well, I didn't say those two concepts were inherently in conflict with one another; I said they were not identical nor dependent upon one another. I just don't see that there is a paradox unless you make those assumptions. You can have sex without a relationship (using your definitions that both are good) or vice versa. Neither will guarantee happiness. Nothing guarantees happiness but peace of mind, really. Maybe you just need to get laid, in which case, there are ways to accomplish that aren't there? Online dating for one. I actually had a roommate once who online dated simply because SHE was oversexed and really "needed" a lot of sex. There are these types of girls out there. Meaningful relationships will only happen once you achieve peace of mind.

When you say you wish someone would help you understand what is going on, what exactly do you mean? Do you want to understand why people continue having sex when it's less than great? Also, you had said that there is a contradiction here: "But to say I 'don't give a damn if you ever get laid' and at the same time say 'its sad that you've never had a meaningful relationship.' Well that feels like an unsolvable contradiction." I don't see the contradiction. Those two statements are disparate and not dependent on nor the same as one another. Getting laid in and of itself has nothing to do with having a meaningful relationship. Relationship are even more qualifiable than sex. There are all kinds of relationships. You can have great sex in a relationship that is "casual" but only if both parties are "on the same page". You can have good and bad sex in a relationship that is based on love, because the relationship itself will have ups and downs and sometimes you or the other person might just not be in the mood. If not, don't force it. You can also have great relationships without sex; some people just don't have a very strong sex drive. I'm not sure what you want more: sex or a relationship?

"Also, you had said that there is a contradiction here: "But to say I 'don't give a damn if you ever get laid' and at the same time say 'its sad that you've never had a meaningful relationship.' Well that feels like an unsolvable contradiction." I don't see the contradiction. Those two statements are disparate and not dependent on nor the same as one another."

I do see a very obvious contradiction. Let me explain.

If 1. sex is in fact a good thing and it makes a person world a better place then it would be wrong to feel indifference toward a person who desired to have it. (unless this is an inaccurate description of sex)

AND

If 2. a "meaningful relationship" is also a good thing and it makes a persons world a better place it would be wrong to feel indifference toward a person who wanted that.

If a person advocates that an individual has 2. because they want that person to have a good thing that makes there world a better place then it makes no sense that they would not also advocate for that individual having 1. if 1. is in fact a good thing that makes the world a better place.

Of course my claim of a contradiction assumes that sex in fact is similar to a "meaningful relationship" in that respect.

Perhaps sex is a good thing but it doesn't make a persons world better because there are other comparable things. That is why I am asking the question if there are in fact comparable things, so I can find out if that is the way out of this contradiction.

But... you say that their "isn't much above and beyond" sex which could imply both that sex is a good thing and that it makes a persons world a better place. Yet you yourself don't see how the contradiction that I see. (OR maybe you couldn't see the contradiction until I pointed it out)

In order for their to be no contradiction from your perspective of sex being incomparable to anything else but child birth it would have to be the case that having something incomparable to anything else does not make a persons world a better place.

Hopefully that made sense.

In addition, your logic presumes that sex and a meaningful relationship are identical which is a fallacy and a big jump in your argument.

"In addition, your logic presumes that sex and a meaningful relationship are identical which is a fallacy and a big jump in your argument".

I didn't say they were identical I said they had abstract an abstract feature in common.

It makes people seem like they are unapproachable and cruel when they say they don't give a damn how I feel about not getting laid. Asking these kinds of questions helps me gain clarity over whether people are as uncaring and as cruel as they seem. Obviously there is circularity in saying that "meaningless" sex isn't good. But to say I "don't give a damn if you ever get laid" and at the same time say "its sad that you've never had a meaningful relationship." Well that feels like an unsolvable contradiction. So I am trying my darnedest to parse the hidden assumptions that underlie the various attitudes toward sex.

It seems kind of shallow in my view if a person tries to declare how deep their love is for life by saying chocolate is better then sex, when all they really mean is that chocolate is better than bad sex.

I take a highly suspicious view on the things people say about sex, and I don't know why people can't be more straightforward. You seem more straightforward though.

Hopefully someone will help me understand what is going on.

Well many of the dangers of sex can be avoided by having a monogomous relationship with somebody you love and taking appropriate precautions such as birth control. When those are factored in which would you prefer sex or music?

I would give up sex in an instant for playing music. Sex has to many negative side effects, emotions, unplanned pregnancy, disease, ETC. Music has never done anything to harm me, and most likely never will. Unless a song convinces me to kill myself or something to that extent, which also will never happen.

No I do not enjoy sex as much as others would. I suppose, I find it hard to put myself into a sexual mindset. If i do get put into this mindset I find it hard to stay there.

My mind constantly wonders and I start to think of the primitive aspects of mating. Things like cavemen and then it just gets out of hand from there, ruining the whole experience.

This kind of thing happens all the time, even while playing piano. It's just easier to restart a piece of music than it is to restart sex.

So in conclusion: Sex is good but not the greatest.

Ha Ha sorry! Obviously water is better than sex because you die without that. I am thinking more in terms of satisfying activities. Do you like pianos more than sex because you like the "idea" of music and the values it represents? Or do you really "like" piano more than sex in a more tangible sense? I hope that question made sense.

I am generally a pretty confident person. Also i probably think about sex in a deeper sense than most folks do.

Also I felt i would be able to give a more unique answer because of my slightly different view on sex.

So what gives you the confidence to ask what is better than sex?

It more represents anxiety and an extremely scattered brain. Cavemen isn't a common theme, it was just an example, thinking about how old sex is>thinking about cavemen>thinking about fire>thinking about energy> and so on and so on.

Love does not get rid of the emotion factor, It makes it worse, this is what I meant. also monogamous relationships tend to strain my anxiety. I am not good at being "faithful" to someone so i decided not to try.

Even with all this considered I would still choose music over sex in an instant.

"There are plenty of things better than sex.Nothing beats sex with someone you are deeply in love with."
It seems like those two statements are saying different things.

"Just sitting together is sometimes better than sex."

Is that just better than bad sex or decent sex?

Seemingly, they do. However, for some people sex is..well, a sport is the best way I can put it. Not connected necessarily to emotional feelings for the other person.. A recreational activity two friends might do.

I'll compare it to racquetball--it's a game two people play, their every move depends on the other person's move. Adrenaline builds in anticipation of that next move. It's quite possible someone's gonna work up a sweat, someone might need Gatorade or a snack afterward,someone might even need to hit the shower and someone's going to be exhausted when the game is over.

Some people aren't so easy, charles. (I've been waiting to use that, believe me)

Some people will not have any sexual contact with someone unless they are very sure they're in love with them. Sometimes it starts out the former and ends up the latter.

The attached video is from my favorite movie ever--it came out in 1989, right when I met my first college girlfriend, and at the time I decided that it is pretty much what I'd call the answer to every question one may ever have on the subject. If you haven't seen the movie, go get it.

I doubt it has anything to do with social skills Charles, you seem to be quite good in conversation. If you feel "in experienced" it is probably just a matter of confidence.

Watch the episode of seinfield where george gets a wig to clear up what I am talking about. He got the girl that would talk to no one because "He was brimming with confidence"

Do you like sex because its a stress reliever, more than its positive benefits?

I don't know because I don't have experience. I don't have experience because I don't have social skills.

Bam, there it is...as I was typing my answer. if heart attacks aren't common at your age, you're young (and I can infer that you don't run with a crowd that uses cocaine, crack, meth, speed, etc)

Strokes are not common at 35 but I had 2, then 1 at 37 and 1 at 38.

I still have to filter through the rest, though:
Now--the cucarachas--you have never taken pleasure in killing one. Have you never killed one or have you never been even marginally happy when you've killed one?

I'd have to call BS on that if anyone told me they intentionally extinguished a cockroach and felt guilt or remorse.

HUH! you must be a grade school kiddo trying to know everything. or pretending?

I can't prove to you the world isn't as screwed up as it is. I CAN prove to you that it IS.

All it takes are a few words or names: BP, Gulf, Obama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Republican and Democrat

And I pulled this from that exchange:
//
Their is a big connection between sex and "meaningful relationship" in the idea of a "sexual relationship." Ideally a marriage is a "sexual relationships" and that is considered one of the most meaningful relationships.
//

I'm not going to sugar coat it: gettin' it ain't half bad. But if you take a walk out of the bedroom, get off the couch, get off the picnic table, stand up from the beach towel, get out of the hot tub...get off your office floor you will see that there is much more to life than "A-double-S."

Let's suppose you were previously very, um, active. You could be totally celibate and deposit a check for five million dollars--let's say it's your very first real estate transaction flipping a house. You may sleep like a baby that night, and I can guarantee you'll have what can best be described as "that just f**ed look" that can't be slapped off your face the next morning.

Did you miss my list of things that began with hitting the winning homer in The World Series?

Marriage is not ideally a sexual relationship. There is WAY more to it than that and there are easier ways to get a sexual relationship--and I'm not talking about paying for it.. Plenty of people are giving and plenty of people are taking. Here's just ONE example:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=cas

Obviously, Americans aren't fantastic at the marriage skill--without any sources, it's a well known and oft-referred-to fact that 50% of marriages end in divorce. As I recently heard a stand-up comedian say, "A successful marriage is where one partner has a funeral for the other, stands over the grave and says "Well, honey, we made it."

And non-marital, non-sexual relationships can be very meaningful. Even if they are arrangements of convenience. If one has never been married, it's the only experience one has to go on.

I'll buy you a beer--or diet cola or glass of water--when you get divorced. If you're this anxious before sex, man, wait until the divorce! I sense you're gonna need that beverage.

Statistically, you've already got a 50% chance at failing.

Well, different person has different answer.
And one person will have different answers sometimes.

So in your opinion people who say other things are better than sex aren't really enjoying sex as a healthy person would?

Ooh, good idea! He might like that picture too;-)

But ecstasy is such a strong word. Were you meaning to imply that nothing comes close to sex in the amount of "ecstasy"? What else gives you ecstasy?

Okay just give me a clear answer....what is better than sex with love?

wait you like texting more than sex?! astonishing.

Sex is one of the best thing in life if it is equate with love. It makes it so satisfying and so fulfilling.

"if it is equate with love"

Can you rephrase your awkward wording?

Also what do you mean when you say sex becomes "meaningless:?

"Yes everything is better than sex if there is no love or caring for the person you having sex with."

Why is everything better than sex if there is no love or caring? Let me get some clarity here. Is it 1. that it doesn't feel as good without love or caring? Or 2. is it that sex without loving and caring loses sentimental value despite the fact that it feels comparable?

Is it possible to be oversexed?

Okay, is that a quote from the book you show?

But yet "reins" true.

I said reins comes from the Latin word renes. If you were to look up the meaning of the word reins you will find that it means the lower trunk. Although reins comes from the Latin word that does not mean the exact definition has held. And as I stated it also includes the lower abdomen.

The evolutionary paradox here is simply amazing.

Do you think those charismatic christian types who are waving their hands in the air at sunday services are experiencing something as good as sex?