What do you think would/should happen if someone posted a question that suggested suicide?
My question is three fold:
1. What would you do?
2. What do you think Mahalo should do?
3. What should happen to the poster?
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M$14 Answers
I would like to think that if someone i knew (A friend a colleague or family member) was contemplating suicide, that someone would step in and take proper precautions to help the individual on a individual bases.
Since there is no mechanism for setting off a red flag to this on MAHALO other than the "Report" option.
(Which I also believe should be further detailed)
To alert the owners and full time staff of MAHALO.
These situations should be dealt with very delicately and the owners of this site should be informed via there preferred contact method as soon as possible.
I pray we never run into a situation like this but if we ever did I also pray that we can understand the circumstance to its fullest extent factually, rationally, calmly and without prejudice.
My Entorhinal cortex.
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M$
www.samaritans.org
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M$You can leave an optional "tip" with Mahalo's virtual currency, Mahalo Dollars. If you are asking a difficult question that might require some research, or if you'd like a wide variety of feedback, a higher tip often leads to more answers to your question.
M$
I guess that's the key, you never know someone's intentions. However, after reading about the Biggs case, I can honestly say that I doubt I would have taken him seriously (because he had made similar threats in the past). I know I wouldn't have encouraged him, but I would have thought he was trying to get attention--which in and of itself is a warning sign of problems but not much one can do unless they know the person.
So I guess I'm wondering at what point does one decide that someone is crying "wolf" and not "help"?
Good point. Of course, I'm not a trained therapist, so I'm not sure if there are or are not dangers to playing to someone who is "crying suicide." In real life, it is clearer to take things seriously. Online, however, with so many people feeling safety behind their anonymity, the line blurs.
Not if they are threatening to take pills, no.
Seriously, so far everyone is talking as if they would perceive any talk as a real threat. How do you know it wasn't just talk or a bad joke by a 12-year-old kid?
That is just it: how do we know it is a joke? A bad joke like that is not good sign, is it?
They say people who commit suicide do not talk about it, but what does it cost you to give a few kind words just in case?
Life is so extraordinary, I would not mind living 200 years. I wish everybody would feel the same.
It does not matter if they cry wolf. What do you have to lose? Think of it this way: it is not always the nicest people who commit suicide: they can be very aggravating because they cannot find a good equilibrium. If people just want attention, what do you lose by giving them a little bit. It may help, it may not, it may be that somebody will take you for a fool, so what? You are above it, because you will have done the right thing. My dad used to say he would rather help ten scam artists than refuse to help somebody in real need.
It's often a cry for attention and that shouldn't be rewarded by giving the poster attention publicly. Instead it should be handled privately by someone who actually has some training in the matter.
If Mahalo doesn't have someone who is trained in dealing with suicidal ideations then it should be forwarded onto someone who contracts for Mahalo to deal with suicidal ideations.
It's clearly not the position of people answering to deal with these situations, it's for someone trained to deal with.
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M$
I think it is similar to a medical case. For a therapist to safely help someone they would need far more information than they could gather from a single post. It could even be dangerouns because the asker could mistake the advice for informed profession advice, when the advice giver was not really informed.
Ooo, good answer. So, if someone was a trained therapist. Do you think they would be obligated to respond?
Of course, doctors should not feel obligated to respond to medical questions...
2. Mahalo should be imparcial, but could control from afar. If things get out of hand they should contact who made the question and offer support.
3. He or she should be helped, and supported by the community, not punished. I can´t even imagine anyone here encouraging a suicide...
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M$2. A suicide prevention professional or volunteer must be notified immediately.
3. An automated system could send an email to an organization like www.samaritans.org and/or phone a group like 1 800 SUICIDE on behalf of the individual. There are numerous suicide prevention organizations. One or more should partner with Mahalo Answers.
4. The question MUST not be deleted. I believe that any such action by Mahalo should be illegal. Having such a question deleted could be extremely invalidating and lead directly to the suicide or other self-destructive behavior.
5. There should be a section of the website for these types of questions regarding depression or suicide. There should be a way for members to flag questions to go there. This way people that have those types of thoughts will know that they are not alone and have a place where their pleas for help will be recorded and Mahalo users can at minimum let them know that their existence matters and preferably get enough information about the individuals so that professionals can contact them.
6. Any encouragement for the individual to kill him/herself or taunting is criminal (or should be, if it is not already so by the letter of the law) and should have legal consequences. Mahalo should immediately ban individuals doing such a thing and assist authorities by presenting them with any identifying information.
7. If Mahalo staff, investors or users are concerned that Mahalo Answers might become a "target" for suicidal people if it refuses to ignore pleas for help or has an effective strategy for dealing with them, ask yourself this question: "What would you prefer Mahalo do if your son or daughter posts a suicidal question on Mahalo Answers? A) ignore him/her, B) encourage him/her to kill his/herself, C) delete the question, D) find a way to get your son or daughter help immediately."
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M$
Well, at the very least, here is a study that examines some 200 other studies to look at the copycat effect:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14204639
This is a very clear reason to delete all posts immediately. The more public suicide stories are the more likely it is to have copycat effects. Essentially if a suicide attempt is made public, it will encourage others to consider suicide as well.
Still looking for the study on encouragement of suicide...
Well, I actually believe at this moment that even though you have mentioned a disagreement I might still have a fair chance of being selected as best answer. Of course, that's not important and so I will not hesitate to be emphatically contrary here.
You are _extraordinarily wrong_ to think that your children (or anyone else) should not even consider looking for help online or that we should take into account some technical interpretation of Mahalo's existing terms of service here. There is nothing about an online format that precludes it from being a vehicle for this type of desperate communication. In fact, it may be better suited than other means of communication since it might make it easier for people to ask for help. I do not know what your particular hang-up is here and frankly am not even interested in hearing it. I will email my response directly to Mahalo Answers to make sure that my suggestion is heard. (Although, sadly, I have a feeling that they will take the easy way out and agree with you).
As I said, I actually believe that it should be a legal responsibility of sites like Mahalo Answers to accept such questions and encourage users to get contact information from the individuals to provide them with help.
I agree with most of what you said, however I still have a problem with the idea of leaving it up, especially in a special category. In a way, a "suicide threat" is a "threat," and as such violates TOS (not to threaten another Mahalo member). Thus, it should be removed.
I don't have children, but I don't think I would ever want them to think that they might be able to find help online. Plus, I can only imagine the legal nightmare Mahalo would face if they were trying to deal with them. As the warnings say before some categories "Mahalo Answers is not a substitute for informed professional advice."
Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy for people feeling suicidal--more than I care to express here.
I love seeing all the various opinions. It is going to be VERY hard to pick a best answer. So many well thought out and complete answers!
"Any encouragement for the individual to kill him/herself or taunting is criminal (or should be, if it is not already so by the letter of the law) and should have legal consequences. Mahalo should immediately ban individuals doing such a thing and assist authorities by presenting them with any identifying information."
I wish I could find the study on this, but that is about the worst thing that can happen. This would essentially encourage those who have been taunted or ridiculed to consider suicide as an ultimate revenge.
Often people are driven to consider suicide because of social pressures and bad social interactions. They may feel that they are being treated unfairly by the world and that if they could get revenge on everyone who taunted them or egged them on to commit suicide by actually doing it, that would set a very very bad president.
Don't get me wrong, I think that encouraging behavior like that is awful but having laws saying that if you encourage someone to commit suicide and they do it, then you get put in jail would be hugely counter productive.
The easy answer to this is to say that its illegal to egg someone on regardless of the outcome, but the enforcing of a law like that is hard. What if someone was just joking? What if it was interpreted wrong by someone? Most laws require some negative consequence to be enforced.
It's a difficult question, but the simple answer of making it illegal to encourage is not as simple as it seems.
This is really great discussion you guys have started here. While there is no official policy from Mahalo on what to do in this situation, as a Mahalo employee and Answers curator I would instinctively do the following:
1) Send the question/statement to a suicide prevention hotline or organization immediately. That would be the top priority and the most important action any of us could take.
2) I agree with ilaksh that the question should not automatically be taken down. People do frequently research suicide online, and the action of posting a question is most certainly a call for help that should not be ignored.
I wish I could say more about what actions should be taken, but I don't wish to commit Mahalo to any course of action without the appropriate discussion taking place among senior members of staff.
What I said was that taunts or suicide encouragement in response to a suicidal question should be punished. I did not specify only taunts or encouragement that precede an actual suicide.
I think that making that policy clear and tracking down anyone that violates it and punishing them regardless of whether the suicidal individual takes any action will make it less likely to occur.
What do you suggest? Mahalo should ignore such behavior? Or that they should withhold the user's IP address or other information? Because allowing them to get away with it somehow creates more positive outcomes in your psychological scenario? You think that its ok to let kids or adults joke about that? For me, this type of emotional abuse in this situation is at least in a similar category as torturing animals. Only, they are not animals, they are people.
If a suicidal individual sees encouragement on the screen that will certainly influence his actions.
Please do produce some studies that support your theory.
Regarding the idea that I would choose a person who disagrees with me for best answer. I am looking for a good debate not necessarily someone who can write the longest post that agrees with me.
As to my particular hang up, I think that sometimes people expect too much from online members. I also don't feel that someone who is serious about suicide will post such an obvious question to someplace like Mahalo Answers. It would more likely be a more roundabout question "about a friend."
And I don't think we should take anything stated by Mahalo employees here as an official Mahalo statement. I'm looking for viewpoints. Mahalo can decide for itself what to do and post it somewhere more official.
As to leaving the question up for "research" purposes. I would rather post a question and allow several organizations prepare a response that is then posted then have an open question.
To answer your question(s):
1. I would likely try and find out where the person was from, notify Mahalo in order to get IP records and assist them in finding a location for which to notify police.
2. Read above.
3. Whether the poster succeeds or not, the account should be investigated and maintained, but disabled. Should authorities need access to information on the account (posting history, etc.), the information should be there as to at least give some semblance of "why" or "when" something could have gone wrong.
Just my opinion.
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M$
We do know the following:
1. Obviously we are not going to become a place for discussions of suicide methods--those questions should be reported and we will take them down (click the report button).
2. Obviously we should all direct folks to a suicide hotline/resource if they are looking for help.
3. The Answers community is not qualified, and a Q&A service is not the place, to deal with such issues. Professionals should handle these issues.
We
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M$
First, this was (and still is) meant to be a HYPOTHETICAL question. I don't think it is the place to have a discussion about what actions Mahalo may or may not have made about an actual event. You should realize that Mahalo may have taken actions that you are unaware of and, due to privacy laws, they cannot discuss. Also, it's not our business what occurs between Mahalo staff and another user--no matter how we may have been involved on the sidelines. In the end, the judgment call is theirs to make and I trust their judgment.
Second, this question was in no way meant to make any type of decision for Mahalo on what their actions should be. In the end, the decision belongs to Jason. It is his name behind the project--not yours and not mine. If you disagree with his decisions you have three choices: accept them, politely ask him to change his mind, avoid Mahalo Answers.
Third, because this question appears to be derailed, I am going to close it earlier than planned.
A suicide prevention person can't help him if he hasn't told us who he is or you haven't tried to find out.
It is not Mahalo's policy to delete direct questions on these matters, and if any direct questions were removed from the system, it was accidental as part of a larger effort to keep this conversations from being seen by the general public.
It is part of Mahalo's developing policy to make efforts behind-the-scenes to contact proper authorities in these sorts of situations so that anyone in peril will get the help that they need. However, it is of the utmost importance that we take such efforts and discussions off-line, to prevent all manner of unfortunate side effects. Moving forward, if anyone sees a thread they believe indicates that someone is in any sort of immediate danger, they should report the threat quickly to Mahalo so that we can delete the post and alert the necessary professionals.
As far as poison gas goes, this is all of our business because we do not know who or where it is and it could be a threat to any of us. Public safety is everyone's concern even if you don't care about a single individual. As far as this specific case being discussed in this thread, its the most relevant thing to the thread.
Hiding something like this by deleting posts is unethical and should be illegal because he stated that he wanted to use poison gas which is a public threat. I think that people should be able to recognize by this point that we cannot and should not rely on "authorities" to keep us safe just because they are informed of threats.
No one has been or will be alerted. This case proves it. There is no reason to completely delete posts like this besides the fact that it disturbs you. When someone reports a post like that and it is deleted, here is what has happened:
-- A news report is going on downtown. A suicidal person sees this and decides to walk out on the ledge of a six story building that happens to be in the frame. (This is nkechismith posting a plea for help in a public place like Mahalo).
-- Someone notices and points out whats going behind the reporter. They stop rolling and phone the executive producer. (Someone presses Report.)
-- The producer tells them 'Don't worry about it, our reporters aren't qualified to deal with suicide, just move the reporter so the jumper isn't in the frame.' (Calcanis' post above).
-- Everyone goes about their day.
Now, we could have tried to talk the guy down or at least notified the authorities instead of just turning our camera (deleting posts). Far as I can tell no such thing has occurred.
Also, one other thing: he wasn't just going to jump or something. He was planning on using poison gas. So if he could easily kill his neighbors in the process.
@ilaksh
Perhaps this isn't a good forum to be discussing a personal matter, you might be better off messaging the mahalo staff personally using the private question mechanism on this site.
This discussion is related to the MAHALO community as a whole.
Not that I don't sympathize with your situation, which i totally do.
Maybe i missed the point of your comment, but airing out the dirty laundry here about a *specific user* isn't going to help them OR you any either.
The poster should get good answers to his question, with sources. I am sure there are plenty of opinions both pro and con that could be backed up by legitimate sources.
I'd stay clear of questions like that myself unless it was technical, such as "I've been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Which, if any, state or country am I allowed to commit suicide in?"
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M$
Actually, they do collect IP Addresses from all of us (as does EVERY website). You can tell a lot of information from an IP address.
http://ask-leo.com/what_can_people_tell_from_my_ip_address.html
And for the record, the correct answer is "Oregon."
People answering that an IP address is enough are thinking about major crime investigations. It would take a court order to the ISP to even try, and court orders take time and need solid evidence. Even then, the ISP has to search through its logs, because they do not issue permanent IP addresses unless you pay more. On top of that there are the problems of wireless access, whether normal or at a cafe or just using some neighbor's network. And some people spoof, making tracking even harder. Now if you commit some serious crime, the government can track your IP down eventually. But as for a possible suicide clue in an online posting, thinking in terms of a rapid response is just not a real option..
dark_lard Not so simple with a wireless connection, not so simple at all, with people piggy backing off everyone else's WiFi AP's it makes it even more difficult to track.
dark_lard I don't know where your getting this ISP can easily track a person down bit, unless you are living in 1998 with 802.11b or CAN Networks.
Not by a longshot.
Not to mention wep and wpa vulnerabilities no one is safe anymore. The ISP would need to launch a giant investigation and by the time they triangulated the persons position they could already be blind burned or dying.
xds that's why mahalo would contact the ISP with IP records and logs and request immediate action, (if they were going to call the police for a suicide)
It may be hard for you and I to track via IP but it's very simple for an ISP to do it when a website has the records and a good reason, or court order.
Unfortunately with the widespread use of WiFi which can now reach up to 2 miles away with commercial equipment it is becoming increasingly harder to track people's location based on there IP address and other ISP identification breadcrumbs.
there has been cases on myspace.
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M$
Agree. The first thing Mahalo should do is remove the post.
I'm not sure I like the idea of leaving the post up. I think these types of posts should be removed very quickly. Otherwise, it could encourage more people to make similar comments in the hopes of getting similar attention.
Oddly, drivel, your comment is very similar to what happen in my friend's friend's case.
I completely agree with this answer. We have an obligation to act even if later someone says "sucker!" That's called, biting the bullet of civilization.
Don't inform the police. The police will go in with their guns drawn, risking them killing the person in question, and insuring the person will be locked up in some facility against their will.
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M$Nothing.
Nada
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M$2. What do you think Mahalo should do? Mahalo may write a report about the incident. After all, they are not the one who committed it. It the readers choice if he/she'll commit suicide right? Even if you stop him/her, he/she will do what he/she wants right?
3. What should happen to the poster? Have a disciplinary act to the poster. The post may not be helpful to the readers.
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2. Delete the question
3. Suspend the user
Suicide threats should not be tolerated.
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M$
hi, im not sure how i came across this site, i just did while randomly surfing, i, myself suffer from depression, and have on many occasions attempted suicide, i believe i read in one of the comments that people feeling suicidal are less likely to call out that they will just do it, (i may have misread so sorry if i got it wrong) but the majority of people who want to commit suicide and shout out for help do not just want the "attention" although they want to die, most people still have the part that wants to live, they just dont know who to turn to, it is not the easiest of things for suicidal people to talk about, its hard enough to get the help you need, as alot of people dont take it seriously, admittingly there are people out there who just say it and dont do it, or just say it for the sake of it, but whats the big deal they are obviously in a situation where they need help, and people no matter if you know the person who is suicidal or whether you are 100 miles away, sometimes its just the knowing that there are people that gave a monkey about others that makes alot of difference, i mean if people cant congregate as a community (even if there are distances between) and help others out there in need of love, then what IS the point in life... yeh there are some people out there that are horrible, everyone makes mistakes, everyone deserves a chance and if people could make more communitys to help others, -not just suicidal people, allsorts of probems are around and need facing- maybe there wouldnt be so much news about people commiting suicide, or like recently the "abuse" that has been all over the news maybe if there where more people willing to help the children AND adults who suffer it but feel alone, or are to scared to talk out....... If there is anyone that reads this comment and feels what i mean or understands it, please email me, i want to help people, and i would like to meet new people who also feel like they would like to try and change things, i am only 18 years old, but i understand alot of things that a 30-40 or even 50 year old does not due to my past.. please find it in your hearts to help people, any ideas you have please email me, thank you
Charlie
Email addy - charlie212@live.co.uk
(no junk mail or fwds please)
Well, actually they should do what you (xds) mention as a first step then. It would be relatively trivial for them to edit the Report option to include something along the lines of suicide, cry for help, or something that would capture this type of issue. I don't think it would be that hard to write some code that would automatically email samaritans.org with the suicidal person's email address also if that option were selected.
I still think there should be a section on the site where these questions can be placed (or moved to). This type of Q&A thing has a spectrum from purely seeking answers to a particular problem to generally looking for human contact, with the questioner of course usually looking for contact in the context of his current frame of consciousness. I think that suicidal questions and answers are definitely in that spectrum, although on the extreme end, and they should be included because they are certainly as important as any other (they're more important in a way).
Well i think that the genesis of the issue is there is no proactive approach available to be taken here.
Or very little for that matter. And that is unfortunate.
Another thing that bothers me is that the curriculum taught in most countries on basic self discipline issues is based on sigmund freud and john howard.
And other people that have been dead now for quite a while.
I find these theories to be so ass backwards its not funny.
One theory is that pleasure can exist without a equal part of pain.
These theories IMHO are ludicrous,.... i know i won't be sending my kids to public school.
Just basically allot of bad advice and i feel bad for people that have to sit there and listen to this advice.
Anyways..
The very best thing you can do to combat the issue of this magnitude is to have a clear understanding of it, let the person involved know they are not alone, and make sure the people around you do as well.