What can the government do to help Pro-Choice and Anti-Abortion groups find common ground?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165510131594083.html
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M$6 Answers
But I think most sides can agree that abortions can and should be prevented.
I think the discourse should focus on preventing abortions. Both sides can find common ground if the discourse shifts. People talk so much crap about the legality of abortion and don't realize that if we focused more energy on family planning many abortions could be prevented.
It's a matter of agreeing to disagree and find a common goal: preventing unwanted pregnancies.
The past administration obviously was anti-abortion. The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act was catastrophic for women's health rights as it banned an abortion procedure at a federal level. And Bush did his best to appoint anti-abortion judges to the Supreme Court like Alito, who replaced O'Connor. This served him well because in 2007 the court reviewed the ban and ruled its constitutionality in Gonzales v. Carhart. Before there had been a case reviewing a similar law from Nebraska and it had been ruled unconstitutional (O'Connor was still in the Court) so Alito's presence provided the vote to uphold the consitutionality of a law that bans certain types of abortions. The Bush administration was a definite blow to the pro choice movement.
But even though the case upheld a limitation to abortion, the case law until now reiterates the legality of abortion. I think it's pretty much been settled that abortion is legal. So the debate should definitely shift to a more productive debate about preventing abortions. The thing the pro life movement doesn't see when they call feminists pro abortion is that abortion is universally acknowledged as a last resort. The point is that the choice should be there. But I think everyone can agree that abortions are undesirable so the focus should go to that.
Of course, this can bring about a whole bunch of new issues because many people against abortion are also against birth control but it can be a start.
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M$One group says keep the baby regardless if it is via rape, incest. They even believe if a person is not mentally or financially ready to accept this responsibility they should still have the baby. Then there's the rest of us, like me, a mom, but also a believer of fighting against those who subject and attempt to have me live my life the way THEY feel it should be lead and/or maintained.
I find it funny, most of these anti-abortion people are always at rallies, which tells me they probably do not have children. This then leads me to believe they truly do not know the serious life changing commitment parenting involves. Then, I do not see nor hear these people donating money or time to children. Even better, I don't understand if they are so against abortion, go out and start adopting some of the many children left without parents. Become part of the solution.
Lastly, for those who are still against abortion, think of it in a different light. Would you rather see a woman get the abortion, or keep a child she never wanted, and risk that child growing up abused,resented, or possibly killed because a law and/or group of people MADE her keep a child she did not wish to conceive?
I say those last words....because.....my mom did not want a fourth child, that is me. She told me the only reason she kept me was because her friend talked her out of it(abortion). I was abused...along with my brothers...my whole life. My mom felt we robbed her of her life basically.
So, next time anti abortion issues come up, remember people like me, who are damaged for life...being raised by some one who didn't want kids.
There is no common ground.
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M$
What are these rallies that "most of these anti-abortion people" attend? I haven't heard of a pro-life rally for a while. A large percentage of people who are anti-abortion are religious, and religious people tend to have children more than non-religious. Some religions are against any form of birth control, so your conclusion that anti-abortion people have no children is completely baseless.
It sounds like the mistake your mother made was not putting you up for adoption. Studies show that the best possible home for a child is an adopted home, even better than the child's biological home (New Study Identifies Strengths of Adoptive Families). Are you honestly saying you wish you had never been born, or do you just wish you had been adopted by the thousands of perspective parents on waiting lists?
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M$
There is already and has long been lots of public debate. It has been debated endlessly for decades. It probably will continue; but, there is no advantage to more of it. There is nothing to be gained when people are fundamentally in disagreement because of religious beliefs. Religious beliefs are not influenced by rational debate.
Unless a woman is well beyond menopause, every time she has sex, she chooses to risk pregnancy. If a woman does get pregnant, all we ask is that she carry the child to term and put it in the statistically best place for a child: an adoptive home (New Study Identifies Strengths of Adoptive Families). TV shows like Friends, House, and 30 Rock have explored the desires of infertile women to adopt, and yet it is viewed as too much of a hardship for a woman to carry to term what resulted from her behavior for the sake of infertile women waiting for children. We're asking only 9 months to save the life of a child, and only the last 5-6 months months of pregnancy is noticeable. Martha Stewart went to prison for 5 months, and it doesn't seem to have wrecked her life.
Of course, proponents bring up rape and incest. I think we can drop incest from the argument on the grounds that either it was consensual and thus the mother's choice, or it was against her will and can be categorized as rape. Pregnancies from rape in the U.S. have been approximated at 200 per year, or 1-2 pregnancies per 1,000 rapes (article with sources). In 2005, 1,210,000 (1.21 million) abortions were performed in the U.S. (article), meaning that rape accounts for less than 2/10 of 1 percent of abortions. Why should the other 99.98% of pregnancies from consensual sex be ended for the .165% of rape pregnancies?
And if you were impregnated by rape, I'm guessing that the trauma of being raped overwhelms that fact that you might have a child to carry to term. There are provisions in place for housing women until their babies are born, and at least you can see something good result from the horror, pain, and trauma of the assault: a family will finally get the baby they have been waiting for. Is it really too much to ask?
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M$
I am in no way against contraceptive use. By all means, if you don't want children, use a contraceptive. What I am against is the false assumption that using contraceptives prevents unwanted pregnancies 100% of the time. For example, when Tyra Banks interviewed Levi Johnston about his and Bristol Palin's baby, when he said they used birth control, she pushed him insisting he must have failed once. (Levi on Tyra)
By concreting in people's minds that birth control always prevents pregnancy, we create a disconnect between sex and conception, and I believe we are actually increasing the number of unwanted pregnancies. If we instead consistently pointed out the risks of pregnancy, people might be more careful about when and with whom they have sex, leading to fewer unwanted pregnancies.
I'll take your word for it that the statistics I had were inaccurate on the number of abortions. As for waiting lists, I know plenty of people who have adopted, and I know how long they were on waiting lists. Studies show that children placed in adoptive homes after they are 18 months old do not do as well as their younger counterparts, so probably the unadopted children are older children. If mothers put their children up for adoption at the time of birth, there would not be a problem.
I think some families in the U.S. are afraid of adoption because of the failure of the courts to properly handle the absent father problem. Prospective parents are afraid of signing the adoption papers, having a child in their home for 2 years, only to have some idiot guy suddenly show up and say, "I didn't know I was a father! I want the baby back." I don't have the sources in front of me, but adoption rates dropped after the highly publicized Baby Richard and Baby Jessica cases. That's why some people prefer international adoptions, because if you adopt a baby from China, for all the extra hassle and expense, no one is going to come back for it. Personally, I think that if a man is not married to the mother and is so out of touch with her that he doesn't know he is a father, the baby should be adopted by more capable parents.
@momojet, if a person has sex without consent, it is rape. I would certainly consider incest with an 11 year old rape, as would anyone. I was merely lumping non-consensual incest in with rape to simplify the discussion. If a 30-year-old woman chooses to sleep with her brother, it is not rape.
Returning to the statistics, a very small percentage of abortions are on rape victims. Your example of an 11-year-old impregnated by her father is tremendously rare, and I hope that man does hard time. But are you attempting to say that having a baby is just as traumatic and horrifying as being raped by your father? The therapy that poor girl will need to go through for such a betrayal of trust is tremendous. I don't think asking her not to kill the child holds a candle to it. In fact, based on the number of books out there on coping with abortion, having the girl carry the child to term may actually be better for her mental health.
As for adults not wanting the product of a rape, I personally know a few of these "products," and they and their parents are quite happy and well adjusted. Who would be so prejudice as to think, "What a beautiful baby! I hope it's not the product of a rape!" No one should be discriminated against by the way the were conceived, and I'm a little offended you think that it would be in any way appropriate.
Am I trying to tell you what is best for you? Yes. I am telling you that terminating a pregnancy is never right and that even if it causes turmoil to the mother, it's not okay. There are many mothers who were in turmoil and chose to kill their children after they were born, and somehow no one thinks it was justifiable. No matter what your mental state, killing a born innocent child is always wrong and killing an unborn innocent child is equally wrong. Science, the big hero of our modern world, has shown what was unknown back when the Hippocratic Oath was written: that unborn babies are not blobs of tissue, but are living creatures that feel, think, hear. It is wrong to kill them.
We disagree down the line about 100% on this issue so I'm not going to try to argue anything. However, I would like to draw your attention to two sets of numbers for consideration. Your guttmacher source estimates 1,200,000 abortions in a year. The numbers I could find list the number of adoptions at about 120,000 in a year. Also, about 45,000 children are up for adoption but unable to find families. About 20,000 of the adoptions per year are from overseas, apparently because many families are reluctant to adopt sick, mentally ill, or black children (although others do, of course). Those numbers indicate that adoptions would have to increase by about 10 times if abortion ended; and, public support for the undesirable children would also have to increase greatly.
The other interesting numbers are that, looking at the guttmacher.org figures regarding abortion and contraceptive use and doing simple calculations, about 90% of abortions could be prevented if all the women involved had been using contraceptives correctly and consistently. It seems to me that opponents of abortion should be eager, if sincere, to reduce abortions by 90% by fighting to have women educated and enabled to use contraceptives correctly and consistently.
Very well said.
@ srgothard
So why were you offended again? You're way too involved....this is simply dialogue among complete strangers. So, welcome to the world of opinions that are not like yours. That is what makes the right to choose so beautiful. If you don't like what you see on tv....change the channel. If you don't like what you hear stop listening, and if you are so disgusted with individuals who don't think the way you do....well, you don't associate with them. I associate with everyone, whether they believe in abortion, don't believe in it. I don't live their life, I don't know their mental or health condition, so I would not have the nerve to think I know what is best for them.
So, relax.....enjoy reading and responding to others' opinions, because we will not all agree but it does not mean one' s thoughts are better than the other either. You decide what is right for you and others will decide what is right for them. That's it. :)
I am offended that you implied that babies conceived by rape should be aborted because the knowledge that they were a product of a rape is a valid thing to be prejudiced against. Now, in addition to grappling with racial and gender bigotry, you've introduced a new bigotry: conceptual bigotry. And your solution, rather than coming down on anyone that would have such bigotry is to suggest that aborting those babies is the best thing to do.
What if someone suggested that no one wants black babies and that they should be aborted? Would you think their "right to choose" was "so beautiful"? How about if someone said that with all the girl babies adopted from China that we should abort any girls and put only up boys for adoption? What if someone had suggested that incest with an 11-year-old was the child's fault and that she deserved to raise the child as a 12-year-old? There are things that are right and that are wrong, and if a person does not emotionally react in some way against prejudice and evil, it is a sad indicator of who they are.
I have much respect for those who speak their thoughts. I am slightly perplexed by a few things..
Srgothard wrote "Of course, proponents bring up rape and incest. I think we can drop incest from the argument on the grounds that either it was consensual and thus the mother's choice, or it was against her will and can be categorized as rape." What I am getting from this statement is that "incest" is consented sex? When can a child consent their parents and/or siblings to have sex with them? Most girls get their periods as early as age 11. So it is okay for a child who has endured incest or rape to be forced to carry that child to full term, deliver it, and just tell them...your pain, tumoil, and anguish was well worth it?
Even an adult female....I would not condemn her for wanting to carry a child which resulted from an a rape, I however would not condemn her for wanting to terminate either. That child will become an adult, and most adopted children want to know their background. Now do you tell that adult child they are a product of a horrible act against a woman or do you lie to them and just pray they do not find out? I don't want to imagine what that potential knowledge would do. Also, I don't know how many parents out there would love the idea of adopting a child that is a product of rape.
Basically, it still comes down to people trying to tell other people what is best for them. If someone is in a situation, seeking guidance, I can only give them the various options, whether it is abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby to raise for themselves. I will not judge them based on the decision they make, because ultimately the decision is and should be based on what is best for them and their life situation, not what is according to the standard of society and tests, scientific sources and statistics.
I am very libertarian in my thinking. I want as little government evolvement in our daily lives as possible. If two separate groups of “We the people” have a disagreement “We the people” should be allowed to work it out with out government interference. There is nothing the government can do to bring these two groups or any number of other groups together. Government involvement only causes extra animosity in most cases. Better they stay out of it, lets us common folk work it out and pass laws to uphold the majority opinion.
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M$
I think government involvement for the most part is disingenuous and dishonest. It is usually a war of talking points and ideology. I agree government should butt out. I think most people know what is right or not. They just seek the government to strong arm the opposition and strengthen what they want to do and put responsibility on someone other than themselves. Of course if that someone is Uncle Sam, one feels right and justified somehow.
Maybe the government could also try to come up with some way to further discourage rape, both side would theoretically approve of that too. Maybe funding more research on new forensic techniques?
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M$
Hey srogthard, do you read entries? I wrote 3 days ago "Even an adult female....I would not condemn her for wanting to carry a child which resulted from an a rape, I however would not condemn her for wanting to terminate either." So it seems to me you are a bit jaded by your own thoughts. Go back, read a little more, take it all in, and r-e-l-a-x. Oh yeah, I don't care I offended you. I don't know you. Wow, could you imagine what this world would be like if everyone got offended by everything someone else did? This world we live in would not even exist. Take care, I have truly enjoyed our dialogue but time for me to move on to other debates now. Take care. :)
I think the comment belongs with a different answer.
