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M$5 September 03, 2009 10:30 PM

Why are the new trends in web development so steeped in 3rd party scripting and services?

I truly do understand how 3rd party services and software can give you some extra benefit. However, do the pros truly outweigh the cons? I suppose its a case-by-case basis. Almost daily my resistance to 3rd party scripting increases. I will define 3rd-party scripting as linking to scripts to other domains from your website (like google-analytics, quantcast, and getsatisfaction). Yes, I'm aware my blog has Google Analytics installed, I just haven't gotten around to removing it yet ;)

So, as a user of the web, this bothers me. QuantCast was up until recently using flash cookies to track users on the web - without telling anyone. When they were outed, they apologized and backed down. However, why would they start this in the first place? They used to talk about how they could remain persistent even if people deleted their cookies on their computers and they would make this a selling point. I find this a bit shady.

GetSatisfcation runs its scripts off of Amazon Web Services. If I allow scripts from amazonaws.com to run in my browser, I essentially allow any script from that domain to run in my browser. Now, if some malware producing jerk gets and account on amazonaws.com and finds a way to sneak some malicious scripts in there and somehow gets onto my computer, I'm at fault because I wanted to let GetSatisfaction work.

Let's say I'm a web admin and run my own sites (I do). What if I put bank on a service like GetSatisfaction and put it on my website? What's to say GetSatisfaction (which costs me nothing) doesn't go down? What if it gets put out of business? Where's my feedback now?

At least with software I install on my own systems (even 3rd party software, that's fine) I can use the version I have even if the company goes out of business. If there's a security problem with it, I can try to work around it or choose to uninstall it. My users don't have to wait for any 3rd party sites to load their scripts in order for all the features of my site to work. What if the service is experiencing a DDoS attack (HELLO TWITTER!? I really hate that "service") and now my site isn't working properly?

I understand that using 3rd party code can give a lot of benefit for very little investment of time or money, but seriously, why is everyone thinking this is a good idea? Am I in the minority thinking its just a very BAD one?
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September 04, 2009 01:51 AM
There's a bit of a revolution in development going on right now and you're circling around it in your question.

OOP (object oriented programming) revolutionized the way that code was composed. Rather than clearly structured language, reusable classes and entire libraries could be developed and used in a variety of different programs.

Today, we're seeing a lot of small independent applications with open API's being created. These small programs serve singular functions but can be combined in a variety of different languages (Ruby, Python, JS, PHP, whatever) to do a variety of different things.

Thinking about OOP and thin applications such as Bit.ly in the same light may open a different view for you. When either OOP or thin applications are used, development time decreases, functionality is improved and debugging time is saved while documentation and support are offloaded to the 3rd party company.

This isn't to say there aren't problems. Uptime, reliability, unexpected changes, complete understanding, etc, etc all get in the way. However, in the minds of many developers working in extremely fast paced environments, using 3rd party applications is as important as using OOP itself.
Asker's Rating:
• This puts it into perspective for me the best. I just don't like it ;)


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Helpful: geekmiser

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September 04, 2009 11:45 AM
I think I might be the new dinosaur in the Dilbert comics. I don't like this trend at all. lol.

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September 03, 2009 11:11 PM
Well, many see how useful they are. They can help you improve your blog or sites. I also think it's a trend like you said. if someone uses something, others will soon follow, that's how stuff works online.

Others see it your way, they feel it's unnecessary and obnoxious. If you don't like this rising trend, I wouldn't recommend ignoring which is almost impossible. The best thing you can do is try to wait it out.

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September 03, 2009 11:34 PM
yeah, I really don't like it. :) I agree, ignoring it won't make my web experience very fun. I do use NoScript, which lets me pick and choose, but good lord its getting ridiculous.

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September 04, 2009 01:08 AM
Yeah, things get out of hand really fast. Good thing they make NoScript and such programs. I just integrate it with my online experience. I don't care :D

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September 04, 2009 11:49 AM
I didn't care, until a website I volunteer at (on their forums) added GetSatisfaction and wants to focus their efforts on that tool for getting feedback. When the only things I was blocking were tracking scripts, it was easy. Now I'm blocking functionality that might hamer my ability to communicate with them because somehow, GetSatisfaction is an improvement over a feedback email system.

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September 04, 2009 01:42 AM
I'm a web developer who runs his own servers, so I have easy access to the log files, and I happened to know enough about statistics and programming to build my own analysis tools, so for me I get way more of the kind of information I want when and how I want it, but if I didn't know how to do that, what other choice would I have?

In a similar vein, I was lucky to know enough to see how to write my own cgi development library and my own database engine, so I don't get hamstrung by third-party syntax rules like would have to happen if I had to use PHP for cgi's and mySQL for a database engine, plus I can fix bugs in the tools if I find any, *and* I can add new features whenever I want without having to go through a third-party process, so I get a definite competetive edge that way, but if I didn't know how to do that, what choice would I have other than to use PHP/Java/Perl for cgis and mySQL/Oracle/PostgreSQL for the database engine?

The way I see your point is: *You* can see how it's so much more immediately useful and handy to be doing that kinda stuff yourself instead of using a third-party service, therefore why would anyone want to, and I totally understand, but all it's telling me is that *you know how*, and I think the problem you're seeing is a consequence of so many people entering web development who *don't* know how to do that kinda stuff but who *do* want to be able to get stats, such that they have no choice but to get it from one of those third-parties..

In other words, when you see trends of web developers moving out to build up the fortunes of third-party traffic-analysis services, it just means that more people from backgrounds in graphics/design/adcopy-writing are getting into the web development game per the number from a technical background who would know how to do that for themselves.

Don't stress about it too much. I found that by me being able to do it myself, I can always offer custom analysis (and custom cgi/database development) for graphics/design/adcopy-text hosting clients at 30% right off the top of what big third-party analysis services would have to charge for custom work, and sometimes even up to 60% off, while maintaining the same margin.

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September 04, 2009 11:44 AM
Great answer, thanks. I'm actually not worried about 3rd party programs installed on your own domain. I'm more worried about linking to scripts on someone else's domain. I do see how easy it is to develop, I just don't see it as a good thing for the web in general and it looks like a small matter of time before it gets big enough to be a really big issue in security of your personal information and privacy.

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September 04, 2009 05:45 AM
It's the beauty and the beast of an open system. Despite what most people may think, the Internet is an open system.

It would be far too expensive, impractical, and closed to create all these tools yourself.

You do hit on a great point though when you talk about availability. If the service every one of your pages relies on is down (like you mention, think Twitter) your site is then also down. For a lot of these services, the cloud is the answer. If these services are deployed out to the Internet in a distributed, co-located, homogeneous way, unless the entire Internet is down you will be able to connect to the service.

Another potential long-term solution is "offline" transactions - something similar to Google Gears. You could then essentially cache/queue each request you would have made to that service until such time that it becomes available again.
Source(s):
http://tools.google.com/gears/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing


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September 04, 2009 06:46 AM
"It would be far too expensive, impractical, and closed to create all these tools yourself."

Not necessarily. It depends on how you've modularized your library modules and set up your intra-API.

My university major was in the lif sciences,and I took some lessons from that: Eukaryotes organized from compositions of prokaryotes, tissues organized from eukaryote cells. Organs organized from tissues. Animals organized from organs....

If you look at insects, you'll notice that they all follow the same basic body plan, yet look at the variety you can get. Likewise, step back a bit and look at the logic of the exoskeleton with segmented body parts, and you've got the modular basics of insects, spiders, cenipese, millipedes, crabs, lobsters...

I've got my modules tunes so I can snap together a new "species" of app or utility custom for the client faster than it could ever be done with normal 3GL (thrid Generation Level, i.e. PHP, C/C++, Perl, Java, etc.) level programming, and all the database stuff is embedded as a natural byproduct of their operation, so for me it's *not* a case of any of that being "far too expensive". It's far too expensive for anyone else doing it the normal way, but not jme, and that makes for what's called a "competetive edge".

Mind you, it took 15 years and 7 serious redesigns and rewrites to get those modules to finally snap togther just right, so in a sense the time it took that way is analogous to evolutionary time scales...

In any case, take some lessons from the life sciences, and make some notes about some of the "tricks" used by nature to push life from bacteria up to dolphins and african elephants and bonobos and humans, and you'll see that if you do it right, it's not necessary to build a whole new Order from scratch within Kingdom Microsoftia or Kingdome Linuxia or Kingdom MacApple every time you get an idea for a hot new service or application.

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September 04, 2009 11:47 AM
But what ever happened to just installing them on your local server? People write code for web servers that you can just install. Some of them easily.

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September 04, 2009 01:56 PM
geekmiser - this isn't a valid option for many because of two reasons:

1. licensing - installing software on your server carries with it a ton more licensing issues for most companies than simply calling out to a hosted service
2. maintenance - if it's a hosted service, they incur the cost of doing upgrades, deploying fixes, etc.

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September 04, 2009 10:16 PM
Indeed, but I don't have to pay licencing fees because it's my own software, and I maintain my own servers, at my own location, so I don't have to worry about managed hosting fees, so I'm just saying that I *understand* why those services happen, but I'm also saying that if you've got the tools and infrastructure to do it yourself, you'll have an advantage if you can. I can, so I do.

And you wanna know what I think one of the biggest edges is? It's that people who host under those conditions don't have surfers coming to their sites seeing long lags from pages being served up because of embedded scripts in those pages calling out to send stats to clunky analysis services without knowing, or having been designed, to do it asynchronously.

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