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Does selling "used" MP3's have a chance?
Bopaboo.com hasn't launched yet, and I'm definitely on the waiting list, but as a legal type question, do you think that you could really sell your legitimately owned music you no longer want?
I realize that there is the whole issue of you could sell it and keep a copy, but you can do that with CD's too, right? And you can sell your old CD's.... so you can do this too, right?
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2008/12/bopaboo-lets-your-sell-used-mp3-files.php
I realize that there is the whole issue of you could sell it and keep a copy, but you can do that with CD's too, right? And you can sell your old CD's.... so you can do this too, right?
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2008/12/bopaboo-lets-your-sell-used-mp3-files.php
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My view on Bopaboo's idea is that it makes sense on paper, and it makes sense logically; however, not so much legally.
You mentioned in your question that anyone could copy a CD and sell the original as used. Just because those who are doing that aren't getting letters from RIAA, doesn't mean it is legal. I think the reason RIAA and recording studios haven't taken much legal action against such trade is that the probability of propagation of copied CDs is very slim. Most people aren't going to buy it, copy it, and sell it. The possibility and probability of unauthorized propagation of digital media is, on the other hand, much higher. It is extremely convenient to share the files over the internet.
An added part of this issue is DRM and DMCA act. If the digital media is "equipped" with DRM, media vendors can track where the files are moving. So, unauthorized sharing can be tracked. Using that information, studios/RIAA can sue on the basis of DMCA.
So, to answer your questions, I don't think selling 'used' digital media (MP3 or anything else) has much chance if there is no DRM on it. If the files have some way of knowing how many copies of it are currently "active", there is a chance that Bopaboo (and any similar service) will survive. But I'm sure you realize the problem by now... if there's DRM on the media, why buy it used? What if the DRM is from Apple Store, and you want to play the file in Creative/Microsoft MP3 player (or Linux), and do all that legally! Even crazier thought is, what if EVERY digital media vendor and hardware manufacturer agree on a standard of one type of DRM for interoperability? Well, that would be a lame solution, because now that security information is out there and it can easily be countered. Once you take the DRM-off, and start sharing online... we're back to where we started.
So, yea. It's a complicated situation. In an ideal (or even pseudo-ideal) world, this would work well, but I don't think Bopaboo has any chance for long-time survival.
Hope this helped.
You mentioned in your question that anyone could copy a CD and sell the original as used. Just because those who are doing that aren't getting letters from RIAA, doesn't mean it is legal. I think the reason RIAA and recording studios haven't taken much legal action against such trade is that the probability of propagation of copied CDs is very slim. Most people aren't going to buy it, copy it, and sell it. The possibility and probability of unauthorized propagation of digital media is, on the other hand, much higher. It is extremely convenient to share the files over the internet.
An added part of this issue is DRM and DMCA act. If the digital media is "equipped" with DRM, media vendors can track where the files are moving. So, unauthorized sharing can be tracked. Using that information, studios/RIAA can sue on the basis of DMCA.
So, to answer your questions, I don't think selling 'used' digital media (MP3 or anything else) has much chance if there is no DRM on it. If the files have some way of knowing how many copies of it are currently "active", there is a chance that Bopaboo (and any similar service) will survive. But I'm sure you realize the problem by now... if there's DRM on the media, why buy it used? What if the DRM is from Apple Store, and you want to play the file in Creative/Microsoft MP3 player (or Linux), and do all that legally! Even crazier thought is, what if EVERY digital media vendor and hardware manufacturer agree on a standard of one type of DRM for interoperability? Well, that would be a lame solution, because now that security information is out there and it can easily be countered. Once you take the DRM-off, and start sharing online... we're back to where we started.
So, yea. It's a complicated situation. In an ideal (or even pseudo-ideal) world, this would work well, but I don't think Bopaboo has any chance for long-time survival.
Hope this helped.
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Bopaboo seems to be taking the legal position that having a disclaimer saying "Now, seriously, you *promise* to delete your own copy of this file, right? Right???" that they are in the clear. While it might get them around some loopholes on paper, I don't think they'd last if challenged
My guess is that music industry will let them flounder and die on their own. If they look to stand any chance of gaining traction, then action will be taken to shut them down.
There is no such thing as a "used" digital file, in any but the strictest dictionary sense of the word. The business model for selling used merchandise relies on two facts -- that the item has deteriorated in some way and is thus no longer as valuable as the original (not true for digital assets), and that the original owner no longer possesses the item - it is physically transferred somewhere else (again, as mentioned, this is possible but highly unlikely in the digital world). There is no distinction between used and new, and therefore it's pretty darned impossible to build a business model upon that distinction.
My guess is that music industry will let them flounder and die on their own. If they look to stand any chance of gaining traction, then action will be taken to shut them down.
There is no such thing as a "used" digital file, in any but the strictest dictionary sense of the word. The business model for selling used merchandise relies on two facts -- that the item has deteriorated in some way and is thus no longer as valuable as the original (not true for digital assets), and that the original owner no longer possesses the item - it is physically transferred somewhere else (again, as mentioned, this is possible but highly unlikely in the digital world). There is no distinction between used and new, and therefore it's pretty darned impossible to build a business model upon that distinction.
This portion of your answer is really interesting:
"The business model for selling used merchandise relies on two facts -- that the item has deteriorated in some way and is thus no longer as valuable as the original (not true for digital assets), and that the original owner no longer possesses the item - it is physically transferred somewhere else (again, as mentioned, this is possible but highly unlikely in the digital world)."
But... if a CD disc is still playable, the quality of the "used" item IS indeed the same as the "used" digital files, the value being less maybe because of time only... like depreciation.
Legally, with the "promise to delete your copy" isn't it the same argument as with reselling CDs?
"The business model for selling used merchandise relies on two facts -- that the item has deteriorated in some way and is thus no longer as valuable as the original (not true for digital assets), and that the original owner no longer possesses the item - it is physically transferred somewhere else (again, as mentioned, this is possible but highly unlikely in the digital world)."
But... if a CD disc is still playable, the quality of the "used" item IS indeed the same as the "used" digital files, the value being less maybe because of time only... like depreciation.
Legally, with the "promise to delete your copy" isn't it the same argument as with reselling CDs?
In the case of a CD though the CD itself can degrade in quality. The CD and case can both be scratched, written on, etc. The inserts might also be damaged or missing and so that makes the overall product "used" compared to an MP3 that I agree is always new.
Well no, a used CD is by no means identical to a new CD once you factor in the potential for scratches and such things. Whether they are there or not isn't the point - much like the old rule about "once you drive the car off the lot it loses x% of its value" even though you could argue that nothing physically changed.
Welcome to the great divide between "digital" and "analog". In a digital world, there is such a thing as an infinite number of perfect copies. In an analog world, there is not. This is often called the "Metallica defense", since it was made popular back in the day when Lars Ulrich was one of the major voices arguing against digital music rights, and the argument came up that in the days of "bootlegged" concerts, physical media like tape was inherently lossy and there was no such thing as unlimited copies - it was digital that changed that, and by this argument, changed the rules. Some people have gone forth to argue that exactly, the rules now no longer make sense, change the game - while others try to come up with stricter rules to limit copying in the first place.
It becomes a game of reasonable expectations. Once upon a time, when software came with manuals that were inches thick (or bigger), it was considered part of the copy protection that you bought the software in order to get the value of the manual. While it was not impossible for someone to take the manual to the super copier at work (selling software at the time, I know for a fact people would do this and then return the software with the original manuals), it was the sort of thing where you could argue "Yes, some people might do that, but the vast majority can/will not, therefore it's not worth fighting." As it becomes easier to do the copy, more people do it, and thus the fight against doing it steps up.
Look at books today - physical, paper books. Right now there's still no good meaningful way to copy an entire paper book. You can scan it page by page, and some people do - that's how I read the last Harry Potter book, thank you whoever leaked it :)) - but not enough people do it to cause a problem. But with a CD, yeah, you can copy them at will and return them. There are also a whole variety of copy protection schemes out there to prevent this. I'm pretty sure most of them fail because people get pissed off that the CD they bought will play in the car stereo but not in the computer, for instance, but the point is the companies are still out there trying to stop it. There are certainly fights over how second-hand music stores deal with this, I don't think it's cut-and-dried legal or not.
Welcome to the great divide between "digital" and "analog". In a digital world, there is such a thing as an infinite number of perfect copies. In an analog world, there is not. This is often called the "Metallica defense", since it was made popular back in the day when Lars Ulrich was one of the major voices arguing against digital music rights, and the argument came up that in the days of "bootlegged" concerts, physical media like tape was inherently lossy and there was no such thing as unlimited copies - it was digital that changed that, and by this argument, changed the rules. Some people have gone forth to argue that exactly, the rules now no longer make sense, change the game - while others try to come up with stricter rules to limit copying in the first place.
It becomes a game of reasonable expectations. Once upon a time, when software came with manuals that were inches thick (or bigger), it was considered part of the copy protection that you bought the software in order to get the value of the manual. While it was not impossible for someone to take the manual to the super copier at work (selling software at the time, I know for a fact people would do this and then return the software with the original manuals), it was the sort of thing where you could argue "Yes, some people might do that, but the vast majority can/will not, therefore it's not worth fighting." As it becomes easier to do the copy, more people do it, and thus the fight against doing it steps up.
Look at books today - physical, paper books. Right now there's still no good meaningful way to copy an entire paper book. You can scan it page by page, and some people do - that's how I read the last Harry Potter book, thank you whoever leaked it :)) - but not enough people do it to cause a problem. But with a CD, yeah, you can copy them at will and return them. There are also a whole variety of copy protection schemes out there to prevent this. I'm pretty sure most of them fail because people get pissed off that the CD they bought will play in the car stereo but not in the computer, for instance, but the point is the companies are still out there trying to stop it. There are certainly fights over how second-hand music stores deal with this, I don't think it's cut-and-dried legal or not.
I don't think there is any way for a business model based on used MP3s to survive.
The chance for gaming and for fraud on the part of the sellers of the MP3s is just too great. It has already been mentioned that someone can buy a CD and then copy it before selling it, but we aren't so worried about this because it is time consuming. But what if you could rip all your CDs (which you were probably going to do anyway) and then upload/sell all your MP3s to an online used MP3 dealer? There is no way a company would make enough profit selling used MP3s when everyone in the world would be selling every MP3 they have and keeping their CDs. With basically unlimited supply the resale value plummets and the business fails.
The chance for gaming and for fraud on the part of the sellers of the MP3s is just too great. It has already been mentioned that someone can buy a CD and then copy it before selling it, but we aren't so worried about this because it is time consuming. But what if you could rip all your CDs (which you were probably going to do anyway) and then upload/sell all your MP3s to an online used MP3 dealer? There is no way a company would make enough profit selling used MP3s when everyone in the world would be selling every MP3 they have and keeping their CDs. With basically unlimited supply the resale value plummets and the business fails.
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