Warning About Swine Flu Questions
Answered Question
M$2
April 28, 2009 01:33 AM
What is the cause of death for most swine flu victims? is it the fever? is it the effects on the lungs? what makes it a killer virus?
I understand swine flu to be an influenza that people seem to have little or no resistance to, and some people develop intestinal symptoms too, but how come it kills? if it is inflammation of the lungs, and/or fluid build up that causes people to die from it, doesn't support treatment like decongestants and anti-asthma medicine work to aid in recovery? if it is the fever, then wouldn't simple acetaminophen help?
in addition, wouldn't homeopathic medicines, namely Oscillo, work to help people fight off this virus?
in addition, wouldn't homeopathic medicines, namely Oscillo, work to help people fight off this virus?
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Best Answer Chosen by Asker
| April 28, 2009 03:44 PM |
Frequently the inflammation caused by the virus renders the lungs susceptible to a secondary bacterial infection (pneumonia), which can lead to a systemic inflammatory response (also called sepsis). This causes blood pressure to drop, and organs such as the brain, heart and kidneys are unable to get the blood supply they need to function properly.
It's important to know that much of the mortality associated with influenza occurs in patients who have chronic diseases (kidney disease, heart disease, pre-existing lung diseases such as emphysema, and diabetes, to name a few) as well as in the elderly. This is the basis for the reccommendation that all patients with such problems recieve influenza vaccination.
decongestants work primarily on the upper respiratory tract, and thus are of little use in serious cases of influenza, which involve the lower respiratory tract (the lungs and the lower breathing tubes (bronchi). the reason anti-asthma medications are unhelpful is that the physiology is different- anti-asthma medications rely on dilating airways that are constricted in response to a trigger (usually pollutants in the air, other viruses, or exercise) in patients that have asthma.
there is, to my knowledge, no evidence that any of the herbal preparations marketed are effective in treating severe influenza. many people find symptomatic relief from such preparations in mild cases.
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mamakin
April 28, 2009 06:14 PM
thank you for your information. i find it very helpful and do appreciate the fact that your information about over counter medications and alternative remedies is impartial.
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Other Answers (6)
April 28, 2009 01:43 AM
Dr. Sanjay Gupta says that investigators don't know but that there is a problem with fluid buildup in the lungs. "The spreading virus starts a cascade within the body as the immune system overreacts. Fluid builds up in the lungs and inflammatory cells throughout the body react to the infection."
The effectiveness of homeopathic remedies like Oscillo is questionable. There are no clear studies. Right now, the only things that work against the swine flu seem to be a previous influenza vaccination (because it's a combination of several strains, previous vaccinations reduce the severity) and Tamiflu, an anti-viral drug.
In the case of a suspected swine flu infection I wouldn't gamble with homeopathy and go straight for the science. This flu is so strong that it's killing healthy young adults not the old or immunosuppressed like it happens normally with flu.
Source(s):
http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/category/swine-flu/
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2009/04/27/daily13.html?jst...
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8
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April 28, 2009 01:53 AM
thank you for your prompt reply. from that description, it sounds like it resembles hantavirus. i've survived that very unpleasant disease. it also affects the healthier immune systems.......the stronger the immune system, the harder the immunological response.
quite the scary scenario. i certainly don't ever want to feel that way again. coughing up water for 3 months was a horrible experience.
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quite the scary scenario. i certainly don't ever want to feel that way again. coughing up water for 3 months was a horrible experience.
April 28, 2009 02:54 AM
Dumblonde covered most of this but I figured I can add a little-- The flu, at least the 1918 flu, killed people with strong immune systems (those at the ages of 24-45 were at the highest risk). It essentially was an over active immune reaction that caused extreme vasodilation in the lungs. Normally-- loosening the cell-cell junctions in your lung tissue a little bit to let things like immune cells, and antibodies into infected tissues is okay-- it isn't okay when it happens at such a level that you drown yourself to death. Other things also happen... like organ failure caused by cytokine storm (cytokines are immune signaling molecules).
Asthma medication won't work as that functions just to open up a tightening airways (bronchodilation)... it won't relieve fluid in your lungs.
Decongestants do help to reduce vasodilation, and they are included in many over the counter cold/flu medications. Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as prescribing a mega dose of some decongestant to prevent fluid from getting into your lungs as immune cells still need to get in there and fight off infection and there are side effects.
As for Oscillo-- it is, unfortunately just water. That is what all homeopathic remedies are (by definition). Homeopathy essentially assumes that if you put symptom-causing agent in water and shake it up a bunch... and then dilute it, and shake/dilute it some more--until there is no chance of the original symptom-causing agent in it (there are specific directions for how much to dilute/shake it), that the water retains some sort of vibrations of the agent and when you ingest it-- those vibrations somehow fix your disease. Unfortunately liquids don't work like that. They simply take the shape of whatever container you put them in, and unless you freeze them they keep vibrating randomly. That is just how the physics works. Most positive results have been either confused with the placebo effect, or not done with a double blind study (neither the patient or doctor know which treatment is being administered).
Don't confuse homeopathy with herbal remedies, those actually can have active ingredients in them-- and at least in the case of St. Johns Wort, they do. The biggest problem with herbal meds is that they are unregulated by the FDA, which means no one has published any science that back up their claims, and two-- if there is an active ingredient in the herb then, depending on the growth conditions, you can get an overdose (or underdose) of the active ingredient.
Check out www.whatstheharm.net for true accounts some of the bad things that can happen to you if you take herbal remedies and/or homeopathic remedies. They also have lots of stories about what can go wrong when people practice other pseudo scientific beliefs.
Source(s):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17869148
Graduate level virology class I'm taking right now-- Field's Virology book.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
http://www.healthcentral.com/asthma/medications.html
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html
http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html
Phsyics and chemistry classes* if you would like some more information on the physics of water just ask and I will find some for you.
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April 28, 2009 06:03 PM
i've been using homeopathic medicines for decades with results that convince me to continue to use them. while most people get flu and colds around me, when i get any, they're very mild and last maybe 1/3 the duration compared to others. so, all the statements saying that they are useless are wasted on me.
i appreciate the information you've added about the influenzas.
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i appreciate the information you've added about the influenzas.
April 29, 2009 03:54 AM
You're very welcome. I love talking about sciencey stuff like this.
So you're convinced homeopathic remedies are not useless, that is okay-- you're allowed to believe what you wish. Plenty of people believe far more crazy things in this country than the idea that water can retain vibrations and fight things off. The placebo effect is a very, very powerful medicine and sometimes all people need to feel better is a little faith. Just be careful, and please check out that 'whats the harm' website. It has a bunch of terribly sad stories about people that were 'convinced' just like you are.
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So you're convinced homeopathic remedies are not useless, that is okay-- you're allowed to believe what you wish. Plenty of people believe far more crazy things in this country than the idea that water can retain vibrations and fight things off. The placebo effect is a very, very powerful medicine and sometimes all people need to feel better is a little faith. Just be careful, and please check out that 'whats the harm' website. It has a bunch of terribly sad stories about people that were 'convinced' just like you are.
April 29, 2009 06:13 AM
One more comment. It describes how Oscillococcinum is made.
"...Oscillococcinum, a 200C product 'for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms,' involves 'dilutions' that are even more far-fetched. Its 'active ingredient' is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird 'the $20-million duck.' ..."
From the quackwatch link.
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"...Oscillococcinum, a 200C product 'for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms,' involves 'dilutions' that are even more far-fetched. Its 'active ingredient' is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird 'the $20-million duck.' ..."
From the quackwatch link.
April 29, 2009 02:25 PM
wow...how condescending. regardless of how it is made, (which in a certain similarity is how vaccines are produced), homeopathic medicines are known to work beyond a placebo effect. furthermore, they cannot be blamed for any contribution to super-viruses or super-bacteria as conventional antibiotics, antibacterial and antiviral medicines should.
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April 29, 2009 04:48 PM
I apologize for sounding condescending. I really try not to. The quackwatch link was probably a bad move in that regard. You claim that the homeopathic remedies are known to work beyond the placebo effect-- I don't suppose you can name your source?
I would be looking for a study with controlled observations of how people respond when given blindly (as in both the dr and the patient don't know) the homeopathic remedy or the placebo. If the people that take the homeopathic remedy end up 'better' in any way than the placebo group, I'll be convinced and I will do my best to prove everyone else I know that it works and they should try it. Assuming no shennanigans are involved of course.
Vaccines are dilluted, sure, but not nearly to that extent. They're given in varying doses and the smallest dose that ends up providing immunity is used (this is a broad generalization). They measure immunity with various tests such as antibody concentration and the ability of cells to proliferate after exposure to the vaccine components or the disease that was to be vaccinated against. If you're a poor unfortunate monkey or mouse, they may challenge you with a form of the bug you were vaccinated against and compare you to animals that received placebo vaccinations.
They sure don't make superbugs... they can't. Superbugs are made when a you administer an antibiotic and it kills all but the most resistant bugs in the population. Then, someone's symptoms can get better and stop taking the antibiotic-- then the few resistant bugs that are left have free reign over your body to reproduce. It is natural selection. If homeopathic remedies can't select (or kill for that matter), then they can't make a superbug.
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I would be looking for a study with controlled observations of how people respond when given blindly (as in both the dr and the patient don't know) the homeopathic remedy or the placebo. If the people that take the homeopathic remedy end up 'better' in any way than the placebo group, I'll be convinced and I will do my best to prove everyone else I know that it works and they should try it. Assuming no shennanigans are involved of course.
Vaccines are dilluted, sure, but not nearly to that extent. They're given in varying doses and the smallest dose that ends up providing immunity is used (this is a broad generalization). They measure immunity with various tests such as antibody concentration and the ability of cells to proliferate after exposure to the vaccine components or the disease that was to be vaccinated against. If you're a poor unfortunate monkey or mouse, they may challenge you with a form of the bug you were vaccinated against and compare you to animals that received placebo vaccinations.
They sure don't make superbugs... they can't. Superbugs are made when a you administer an antibiotic and it kills all but the most resistant bugs in the population. Then, someone's symptoms can get better and stop taking the antibiotic-- then the few resistant bugs that are left have free reign over your body to reproduce. It is natural selection. If homeopathic remedies can't select (or kill for that matter), then they can't make a superbug.
April 28, 2009 05:56 AM
Swine Influenza (swine flu) is a respiratory disease of pigs caused by type A influenza viruses that causes regular outbreaks in pigs. People do not normally get swine flu, but human infections can and do happen. Swine flu viruses have been reported to spread from person-to-person, but in the past, this transmission was limited and not sustained beyond three people. In late March and early April 2009, cases of human infection with swine influenza A (H1N1) viruses were first reported in Southern California and near San Antonio, Texas. Other U.S. states have reported cases of swine flu infection in humans and cases have been reported internationally as well.
CDC has determined that this swine influenza A (H1N1) virus is contagious and is spreading from human to human. However, at this time, it not known how easily the virus spreads between people.
The symptoms of swine flu in people are similar to the symptoms of regular human flu and include fever, cough, sore throat, body aches, headache, chills and fatigue. Some people have reported diarrhea and vomiting associated with swine flu. In the past, severe illness (pneumonia and respiratory failure) and deaths have been reported with swine flu infection in people. Like seasonal flu, swine flu may cause a worsening of underlying chronic medical conditions.
Spread of this swine influenza A (H1N1) virus is thought to be happening in the same way that seasonal flu spreads. Flu viruses are spread mainly from person to person through coughing or sneezing of people with influenza. Sometimes people may become infected by touching something with flu viruses on it and then touching their mouth or nose.
Infected people may be able to infect others beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 7 or more days after becoming sick. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick.
First and most important: wash your hands. Try to stay in good general health. Get plenty of sleep, be physically active, manage your stress, drink plenty of fluids, and eat nutritious food. Try not touch surfaces that may be contaminated with the flu virus. Avoid close contact with people who are sick.
CDC recommends the use of oseltamivir or zanamivir for the treatment and/or prevention of infection with these swine influenza viruses. Antiviral drugs are prescription medicines (pills, liquid or an inhaler) that fight against the flu by keeping flu viruses from reproducing in your body. If you get sick, antiviral drugs can make your illness milder and make you feel better faster. They may also prevent serious flu complications. For treatment, antiviral drugs work best if started soon after getting sick (within 2 days of symptoms).
People with swine influenza virus infection should be considered potentially contagious as long as they are symptomatic and possible for up to 7 days following illness onset. Children, especially younger children, might potentially be contagious for longer periods.
Germs can be spread when a person touches something that is contaminated with germs and then touches his or her eyes, nose, or mouth. Droplets from a cough or sneeze of an infected person move through the air. Germs can be spread when a person touches respiratory droplets from another person on a surface like a desk and then touches their own eyes, mouth or nose before washing their hands.
We know that some viruses and bacteria can live 2 hours or longer on surfaces like cafeteria tables, doorknobs, and desks. Frequent handwashing will help you reduce the chance of getting contamination from these common surfaces.
Protect yourself from getting sick :
There is no vaccine available right now to protect against swine flu. There are everyday actions that can help prevent the spread of germs that cause respiratory illnesses like influenza. Take these everyday steps to protect your health:
Cover your nose and mouth with a tissue when you cough or sneeze. Throw the tissue in the trash after you use it.
Wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after you cough or sneeze. Alcohol-based hand cleaners are also effective.
Avoid touching your eyes, nose or mouth. Germs spread this way.
Try to avoid close contact with sick people.
If you get sick with influenza, CDC recommends that you stay home from work or school and limit contact with others to keep from infecting them.
Precaution :
If you are sick, limit your contact with other people as much as possible. Do not go to work or school if ill. Cover your mouth and nose with a tissue when coughing or sneezing. It may prevent those around you from getting sick. Put your used tissue in the waste basket. Cover your cough or sneeze if you do not have a tissue. Then, clean your hands, and do so every time you cough or sneeze.
Washing your hands often will help protect you from germs. Wash with soap and water. or clean with alcohol-based hand cleaner. we recommend that when you wash your hands -- with soap and warm water -- that you wash for 15 to 20 seconds. When soap and water are not available, alcohol-based disposable hand wipes or gel sanitizers may be used. You can find them in most supermarkets and drugstores. If using gel, rub your hands until the gel is dry. The gel doesn't need water to work; the alcohol in it kills the germs on your hands.
If you live in areas where swine influenza cases have been identified and become ill with influenza-like symptoms, including fever, body aches, runny nose, sore throat, nausea, or vomiting or diarrhea, you may want to contact their health care provider, particularly if you are worried about your symptoms. Your health care provider will determine whether influenza testing or treatment is needed.
If you are sick, you should stay home and avoid contact with other people as much as possible to keep from spreading your illness to others.
If you become ill and experience any of the following warning signs, seek emergency medical care.
In children emergency warning signs that need urgent medical attention include:
Fast breathing or trouble breathing
Bluish skin color
Not drinking enough fluids
Not waking up or not interacting
Being so irritable that the child does not want to be held
Flu-like symptoms improve but then return with fever and worse cough
Fever with a rash
In adults, emergency warning signs that need urgent medical attention include:
Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath
Pain or pressure in the chest or abdomen
Sudden dizziness
Confusion
Severe or persistent vomiting
Like seasonal flu, swine flu in humans can vary in severity from mild to severe. Between 2005 until January 2009, 12 human cases of swine flu were detected in the U.S. with no deaths occurring. However, swine flu infection can be serious. In September 1988, a previously healthy 32-year-old pregnant woman in Wisconsin was hospitalized for pneumonia after being infected with swine flu and died 8 days later. A swine flu outbreak in Fort Dix, New Jersey occurred in 1976 that caused more than 200 cases with serious illness in several people and one death.
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/investigation.htm
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April 28, 2009 11:20 AM
This answer looks like it was all copied and pasted and it doesn't answer the asker's specific question.
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April 28, 2009 12:33 PM
I think this answer is more a very general (possibly copy and pasted, I found whole paragraphs on google) and doesn't really answer the question that's more specific.
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April 28, 2009 06:03 PM
Welcome to Mahalo Johnsonn, while we appreciate you helping by answering peoples questions, however we couldn't help but to notice this entire answer was copied from the CDC.gov website. It was good to see you did source the text, but please check out some of the quoting rules we have here.
http://www.mahalo.com/answers/mahalo-answers-street-team/answers-etiquette-how-can-we-quote-text-better
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http://www.mahalo.com/answers/mahalo-answers-street-team/answers-etiquette-how-can-we-quote-text-better
April 28, 2009 06:07 PM
thanks. i've read that statement from the cdc a few times, but it is always good for people to see it again :)
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April 29, 2009 12:33 AM
When analyzing the causes for death concerning the swine flu it is important to take a look at the biology of the swine influenza virus. First, it is noteworthy that while the swine flu tends to cause high levels of illness in pigs the death rate among pigs appears to be rather low. So why then does it seem to affect humans more gravely? Similar to other influenza viruses, the viruses that comprise the swine influenza tend to change constantly, and when pigs are infected by viruses from different species (such as the avian influenza, human influenza, or swine influenza) the viruses have the opportunity to reassort, or swap genes, allowing a mutated version (or mix of different influenza viruses) to emerge. http://www.idph.state.il.us/flu/swine_flu_fs.htm
Since this swine flu virus is a new strain, people, especially young adults, adolescents, and children, may not have the necessary defenses built up to fight off the virus, even if they are otherwise healthy. Thus, when young, healthy people are infected with the swine flu virus their immune systems oftentimes trigger a “cytokine storm”, which is an overreaction of the immune system that can be harmful or damaging to the body (http://newsblaze.com/story/20090427092841mcco.nb/topstory.html). This “cytokine storm” is so detrimental to the body that it can cause multiple organ system failure, since the person’s immune system may attack the body’s own (healthy organs and organ systems). Because it can occur rapidly, people who suffer a “cytokine storm” often die (http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Science.PrimerCytokineStorm
). Since healthy body systems are affected by this phenomenon and they persons harboring such healthy organ systems are typically people between ages 15 and 60 years old, this age group would then be the most likely to die from influenza that triggers a “cytokine storm”.
A potential explanation may be that, since cytokines enable the body to communicated between cells, and a cytokine storm may overwhelm a person’s nervous system and cause trouble breathing.
Aside from this phenomenon, the cause of death from the swine flu appears to be more comprehensive than may be initially believed. An article from Monday 27 April 09 on Slate, http://www.slate.com/id/2217019, proposes that genes potentially attributed to a more deadly outbreak of the swine flu in Mexico as compared to outbreaks in the US. In Mexico, it appears that people ages 20 to 40 who contracted the swine flu mainly died as a result of severe pneumonia (http://www.dailysentinel.com/health/content/shared-gen/ap/Health_Medical/MED_Swine_Flu_Victims.html). Some speculations as to why this is the case, include:
Genetics of the virus: Genetic analysis of virus samples in the two countries is continuing. The CDC says tests results show the U.S. and Mexican viruses are essentially the same, but some experts have not ruled out the possibility that the virus is changing as it leaks across the border to the north.
Nutrition: Perhaps nutrition levels are worse in some Mexican communities — poor nutrition can degrade a person's immune defenses, and make them more susceptible to illness.
Air quality: Air quality in Mexico City is considered terrible. That too may have affect patients confronted with a novel respiratory disease.
Medical care: Access to medical care has been an issue in Asia, where a rare bird flu — which does not spread easily from person-to-person — has killed more than 200 over the last several years. Maybe Mexican patients have also had trouble getting medical care or antiviral drugs, some have speculated — even though the government provides health care.
Further, similarly to the common flu, swine influenza can affect especially those individuals with already weakened immune systems can worsen pre-existing medical conditions in people. As a result these affected individuals may succumb to the virus. An overall worrisome factor is that people do not have natural immunity to the disease since the virus continues to mutate.
Thus it appears there may not be a single cause of death for people in general when it comes to the swine flu (although a large number of deaths does seem to point to some type of respiratory impairment or negative effect on the lungs, such as pneumonia), but rather a wide range of possibilities exists of how any particular individual may succumb to the disease, depending on his/her medical history, genetic composition, bodily/immune reaction to the virus, and other factors.
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