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dgsinclair
That single question is often the point at which people will choose a religion that does not claim to have a loving entity at its base over one that does.
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Anyway, I think your book would do well to explore the impact that higher education and intellectual thought have on a person's faith. I find that the more I read, the more I know about the world and its processes, the harder I find it to believe that there's some "Big Guy In the Sky" that's Lord of it all.
At the same time, I want to (and do) believe that there is a God up there. I just want to know why. Is it a product of my upbringing?
Good luck with your book: you're tackling a tricky subject! I'm about to read Tim Keller's book "The Reason For God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism": maybe you should check that out, too :)
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I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around an omnipotent being who has always existed, forever and ever. I'm a material creature, made of matter. I was born, I grow old, I die. I cannot fathom how there can be something outside of that paradigm.
Who created the creator? You can't make something from nothing...can you?
It's a very hard question for me, which shakes what little faith I have on a regular basis.
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Say for example they were gay and could not reconcile the christian standpoint on that, or they were very comfortable with a purely scientific view of the world, or hated the idea of any sort of overbearing authority?
Most religious arguments seem to focus around the idea of admitting that if faith was correct, life would be great, but for whatever reason the person cannot make themselves believe it. This question tackles the converse of this, what would you say to someone who didnt WANT to believe?
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December 17, 2008 12:55 AM
What are the most challenging, difficult questions that challenge faith?
I am looking to write a book on hard questions with regards to faith in general, as well as the Christian faith specifically. I am interested in why people find it hard to believe.
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December 17, 2008 01:13 AM
I never understood people that go to church every Sunday and then the rest of the week be complete (insert expletive here). For me, instead of worrying about whether there is a god and if i picked the right one to worship, I just try to be a good person.
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dgsinclair
December 17, 2008 07:27 PM
Is there a value to corporate spirituality beyond being a good person? In other words, is it valuable to do BOTH?
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December 17, 2008 01:17 AM
The biggest problem is the problem of pain. C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia) wrote a classic book entitled exactly that. IF there is some kind of ultimate supernatural being who claims to be loving, then how could that being allow there to be pain in the world? That single question is often the point at which people will choose a religion that does not claim to have a loving entity at its base over one that does.
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December 17, 2008 07:29 PM
I agree, the problem of pain, or evil, seems to be one of the most vexing. In fact, well known evangelical scholar turned agnostic wrote a book about it recently - see http://www.twoorthree.net/2008/02/barts-problem-w.html
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December 17, 2008 07:30 PM
So, this is perhaps the problem of injustice? Why do the laws of the universe not immediately penalize bad choices, or reward good? Or worse, why does God not intervene?
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December 17, 2008 01:33 AM
I think the most challenging aspect of faith is that you get no real tangible evidence to hold on to that your faith has objective value. Of course if you could observe a supreme being then it wouldn't be "faith." In other words, I think a person's faith is challenged when the believe/pray so strongly for something and don't even get a feeling inside themselves that the time and energy they just expended had value. Sure sometimes, you get a good feeling inside, and sometimes even unanswered prayers might bring some level of satisfaction, but I am talking about when you risk your life to promote your religion and then feel empty inside. To me that is a real challenge of faith.
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December 17, 2008 07:35 PM
You mention many things here. Unanswered prayer. Lack of objective, testable evidence for God. Inner feelings of fullness or emptiness.
Regarding prayer, I read one writer who said "if your prayers aren't being answered, you are not praying correctly." At first glance, this seems offensive, but on inspection, it has something to say. I mean, why did Jesus give *instructions* about how to pray? Perhaps because you could do it badly, or do it well.
Regarding objective evidence, I think you are quite right - faith is not needed if you can confirm with direct observation or evidence. Does that make faith unreasonable, or something beyond reasons grasp? How do you then test for truly unreasonable faith claims?
I think that feelings of inner peace or contentment are definitely worth examining when evaluating faith. If I am still empty and unhappy, perhaps I am wrong! Even though that's subjective, I think it is meaningful as a measure. But I also wonder - if I am empty, is it because the faith I am practicing is wrong, or the WAY I am practicing it, like with wrong motives, is the probem? Hmmm.
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Regarding prayer, I read one writer who said "if your prayers aren't being answered, you are not praying correctly." At first glance, this seems offensive, but on inspection, it has something to say. I mean, why did Jesus give *instructions* about how to pray? Perhaps because you could do it badly, or do it well.
Regarding objective evidence, I think you are quite right - faith is not needed if you can confirm with direct observation or evidence. Does that make faith unreasonable, or something beyond reasons grasp? How do you then test for truly unreasonable faith claims?
I think that feelings of inner peace or contentment are definitely worth examining when evaluating faith. If I am still empty and unhappy, perhaps I am wrong! Even though that's subjective, I think it is meaningful as a measure. But I also wonder - if I am empty, is it because the faith I am practicing is wrong, or the WAY I am practicing it, like with wrong motives, is the probem? Hmmm.
December 17, 2008 01:37 AM
As a person who grew up in the Christian faith, I am constantly having to try to retain my faith that God is there and that what the Bible say is what goes. I agree with all the above answers about why bad things happen to good people (if God is in control). I have always been answered "because of sin," but it's not a very satisfying answer, to be honest. Anyway, I think your book would do well to explore the impact that higher education and intellectual thought have on a person's faith. I find that the more I read, the more I know about the world and its processes, the harder I find it to believe that there's some "Big Guy In the Sky" that's Lord of it all.
At the same time, I want to (and do) believe that there is a God up there. I just want to know why. Is it a product of my upbringing?
Good luck with your book: you're tackling a tricky subject! I'm about to read Tim Keller's book "The Reason For God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism": maybe you should check that out, too :)
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December 17, 2008 07:38 PM
Thank you for the recommendation! I wonder if the increased chances of unbelief that come with higher education are a measure of more than one thing.
It could be that people are merely abandoning childish, superstitious faith and failing to replace it with mature, reasoned faith. An atheist might say that all faith is superstitious, and since there is no reasoned faith, education would always eliminate faith.
However, some of the most brilliant people in history were people of faith. I also wonder if people abandon faith when educated because the way in which we educate comes from an anti-faith world view. I have read quite a bit about how reason and science are not really at odds with faith and vice versa, it's just a world view that the anti-catholic enlightenment thinkers have foisted upon us in response to the religious abuses of the past.
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It could be that people are merely abandoning childish, superstitious faith and failing to replace it with mature, reasoned faith. An atheist might say that all faith is superstitious, and since there is no reasoned faith, education would always eliminate faith.
However, some of the most brilliant people in history were people of faith. I also wonder if people abandon faith when educated because the way in which we educate comes from an anti-faith world view. I have read quite a bit about how reason and science are not really at odds with faith and vice versa, it's just a world view that the anti-catholic enlightenment thinkers have foisted upon us in response to the religious abuses of the past.
December 17, 2008 02:10 AM
The question most people should be asking and finding difficult is this. Given that there are hundreds, probably thousands, of religions, why is it that I believe I just happened to be born into the right one? Most people simply stay with the one they were raised with; but, how can this be sensible? Did you check all the others to make sure they were not more correct? In fact, is there any way to check which one is more correct of any two compared faiths? As it happens, of course, if you have not picked faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster you have picked the wrong religion.
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December 17, 2008 07:40 PM
While I think it is necessary to question what you've been handed, many people, including myself, chose Christianity after having explored unbelief, Buddhism, and yoga.
You are right, most people don't seriously question the world view they inherited. But is it necessary to survey all possible options before making a decision? Perhaps we could just come up with good criteria for evaluating faith commitments, making no committments until a good candidate comes along, and being open to adjusting or abandoning our current system in light of better evidence?
I do think that we CAN create such criteria, and at least eliminate bogus faith claims (like the FSM). We might not be able to prove without a doubt one definitive winner, but we could eliminate pretenders. What say ye?
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You are right, most people don't seriously question the world view they inherited. But is it necessary to survey all possible options before making a decision? Perhaps we could just come up with good criteria for evaluating faith commitments, making no committments until a good candidate comes along, and being open to adjusting or abandoning our current system in light of better evidence?
I do think that we CAN create such criteria, and at least eliminate bogus faith claims (like the FSM). We might not be able to prove without a doubt one definitive winner, but we could eliminate pretenders. What say ye?
December 17, 2008 07:51 PM
Do you need to buy one of every model car to know which one is right for you?
Choosing a religion isn't as easy as comparing price and MPG, but that doesn't mean there is no way to do it.
Personally I am not Christian (nor was I ever in the past) and I don't think it matters what religion people are. In the same way that different vehicles are right for different people so are different religions. I don't try to convert or convince people that my religion is the right religion, because I don't think people need to be following one 'right' religion. In fact I have problems with the religions that actively promote themselves as being correct.
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Choosing a religion isn't as easy as comparing price and MPG, but that doesn't mean there is no way to do it.
Personally I am not Christian (nor was I ever in the past) and I don't think it matters what religion people are. In the same way that different vehicles are right for different people so are different religions. I don't try to convert or convince people that my religion is the right religion, because I don't think people need to be following one 'right' religion. In fact I have problems with the religions that actively promote themselves as being correct.
December 17, 2008 08:04 PM
So, dgsinclair, did it just so happen that you chose the same religion that you were brought up with? For example, if you were brought up Christian did you then pick Christianity from the bunch? If so, it is overwhelmingly likely that your assessment of the other choices was prejudiced. That is especially true if you picked Christianity, as that is a religion which is deliberately and admittedly non-testable. Your comment only demonstrates the strength of my original point if you chose your original faith out of all those that are available. People who have not chosen a faith other than that in which they were brought up have not chosen a faith, they have simply failed to resist brainwashing.
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December 18, 2008 08:02 PM
>> So, dgsinclair, did it just so happen that you chose the same religion that you were brought up with?
No, I was brought up agnostic scientist, with perhaps some Catholic influence from a friend of the family. I converted to xianity, much to the chagrin of my entire family, in college. After ten years of that, I left for many years to explore, then returned to evangelicalism.
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No, I was brought up agnostic scientist, with perhaps some Catholic influence from a friend of the family. I converted to xianity, much to the chagrin of my entire family, in college. After ten years of that, I left for many years to explore, then returned to evangelicalism.
December 17, 2008 03:02 AM
My big one is thus: I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around an omnipotent being who has always existed, forever and ever. I'm a material creature, made of matter. I was born, I grow old, I die. I cannot fathom how there can be something outside of that paradigm.
Who created the creator? You can't make something from nothing...can you?
It's a very hard question for me, which shakes what little faith I have on a regular basis.
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December 17, 2008 07:45 PM
I think you are right in saying that reason would indicate that something can not come from nothing. But then, you would have to argue for an eternal something, like an eternal universe. But you are still left with 'where did that something come from'?
I think philosophy indicates that you have to have an initial 'uncaused cause', which sort of necessitates a God. We would have to accept by definition that the first cause is uncaused, and is eternal. The question of 'who created God' does not make sense if you DEFINE God as that first uncaused thing.
Thanks for your submission! It's a good one!
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I think philosophy indicates that you have to have an initial 'uncaused cause', which sort of necessitates a God. We would have to accept by definition that the first cause is uncaused, and is eternal. The question of 'who created God' does not make sense if you DEFINE God as that first uncaused thing.
Thanks for your submission! It's a good one!
December 20, 2008 01:58 AM
Carriep,
I think you have a great question here, but one that is not exclusive to faith or religion. The creationist theory requires the faith that a being of indescribable power and knowledge created the heavens and earth.
The "big bang" (or any other universe origin theory) still requires the faith that this matter still came from nothing, that there was a big ball of gas, that exploded and created the planets. There still remain the question of where did all this stuff come from in the first place, and what caused the reaction if there was nothing in existence to cause the reaction.
My personal thought is that it is easier to believe that something (the universe) came from something else (God) that just happens to be indescribable than it is to believe that something (the universe) came from nothing at all.
Just thinking.
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I think you have a great question here, but one that is not exclusive to faith or religion. The creationist theory requires the faith that a being of indescribable power and knowledge created the heavens and earth.
The "big bang" (or any other universe origin theory) still requires the faith that this matter still came from nothing, that there was a big ball of gas, that exploded and created the planets. There still remain the question of where did all this stuff come from in the first place, and what caused the reaction if there was nothing in existence to cause the reaction.
My personal thought is that it is easier to believe that something (the universe) came from something else (God) that just happens to be indescribable than it is to believe that something (the universe) came from nothing at all.
Just thinking.
December 20, 2008 03:48 AM
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Actually, that puts you closer to reality than if you had this idea that God was just some old Grandpa man in a funny bathrobe sitting in the clouds dispensing candy and saying yes to everything he's asked for. I always shake my head, laughing but sad, when someone tells me they don't believe in God and then proceed to describe him like that.
I think it's much more realistic to realize he's so different, bigger than us than we can even wrap our minds around. But in the areas where he's similar, we can sort of grasp that--even though it's still hard to realize that even in those similarities, he's the original and we're the derivatives, so his versions are so much more complete than ours are. We can be intelligent--he knows it all and can hold it all in his consciousness simultaneously.
So it's really hard and even impossible to prove the existence of someone who isn't a "person" in the exact same sense we are; who exists outside of time; who has dimensions of himself we have no reference for understanding. But we can understand and relate to what he says are the three biggest things: faith, hope and love. And all are STILL hard, if we're honest with ourselves.
I also think it's very interesting that when you look at religions outside the Judeo-Christian version of God, their "God", if they have one/s, is simply a human all gussied up. Some have wives and children. They feud, get mad over petty things, and sometimes are even killed (permanently). The God described in the Jewish and Christian holy books is more than human. Similar, but beyond.
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I think it's much more realistic to realize he's so different, bigger than us than we can even wrap our minds around. But in the areas where he's similar, we can sort of grasp that--even though it's still hard to realize that even in those similarities, he's the original and we're the derivatives, so his versions are so much more complete than ours are. We can be intelligent--he knows it all and can hold it all in his consciousness simultaneously.
So it's really hard and even impossible to prove the existence of someone who isn't a "person" in the exact same sense we are; who exists outside of time; who has dimensions of himself we have no reference for understanding. But we can understand and relate to what he says are the three biggest things: faith, hope and love. And all are STILL hard, if we're honest with ourselves.
I also think it's very interesting that when you look at religions outside the Judeo-Christian version of God, their "God", if they have one/s, is simply a human all gussied up. Some have wives and children. They feud, get mad over petty things, and sometimes are even killed (permanently). The God described in the Jewish and Christian holy books is more than human. Similar, but beyond.
December 17, 2008 07:45 PM
LOL! That is funny. But I wonder if there was even time before 'time' was created. I mean, it hurts the brain. This is an interesting question, but does it really keep you or anyone from having faith? It doesn't seem that critical to me.
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December 18, 2008 10:59 PM
That's a good question! I would say He read a lot, and had to do his own cooking (no burnt offerings then).
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December 17, 2008 07:47 PM
Great question. This adds specificity to the 'why does god allow bad things' question. Why do the INNOCENT suffer?
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December 18, 2008 08:53 AM
Obviously, you believe that your life is better under your beliefs. But what would you say to someone who was very happy not believing in God, and felt certain that religion in general, and your religion in particular, would make them LESS happy? Say for example they were gay and could not reconcile the christian standpoint on that, or they were very comfortable with a purely scientific view of the world, or hated the idea of any sort of overbearing authority?
Most religious arguments seem to focus around the idea of admitting that if faith was correct, life would be great, but for whatever reason the person cannot make themselves believe it. This question tackles the converse of this, what would you say to someone who didnt WANT to believe?
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December 18, 2008 08:05 PM
So are you saying that one main impediment to faith is being happy without it and seeing no need for it? Is that YOUR biggest stumbling block to faith?
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December 18, 2008 11:31 PM
Well yes and no. First it's more to the point that I think my life would actually be worse with faith. But I also have all the classic atheist stumbling blocks, I think it's not feasible, I think it doesnt make sense, etc. I'm sure you've heard all of those before.
Biggest stumbling block? Maybe. I dont know if I would be able to get over my problems with faith if I wanted to, but as long as I dont want to that's immaterial isnt it?
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Biggest stumbling block? Maybe. I dont know if I would be able to get over my problems with faith if I wanted to, but as long as I dont want to that's immaterial isnt it?
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