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I'll chalk this one up in the "bad things happen to bad people" category. Karma.
At the end of the day the United Kingdom can govern how they see fit, maybe by banning such a popular (how?) American figure would bring attention to their list. Personally, this story makes me go "meh" nothing anybody can really do about it, it's like if Saudi Arabia banned Bill Maher.
My good buddies The Young Turks have been speaking out about this guy for awhile, they are the only reason I know who Michael Savage is.
Here is a sample of Savage's hate speech, you can understand why Britain would ban such a fellow, this is "hate" at it's finest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWGrqBKojXY
Tags: theyoungturks, hate
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Here is what the BBC reports about the Hate Radio guy:
" Considered to be engaging in unacceptable behaviour by seeking to provoke others to serious criminal acts and fostering hatred which might lead to inter-community violence.
His views on immigration, Islam, rape and autism have caused great offence in the US. "
So he falls into the category of undesirable folks that they don't want visiting Britain. I imagine they are particularly concerned that he would stir up hatred of immigrants and the Islamic minority which is a perennial problem.
I hope we never have to do something similar here; but, the Hate Radio guys and crazy preachers are stirring up a large, uneducated segment of the population towards ever greater ignorance and hate. Plain education isn't working as well as it should because families are avoiding it via home schooling and religious controlled schools. NPR by itself isn't enough, I don't know what we should do. Banning home schooling and taxing all religious institutions might help a lot.
Source(s):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8033319.stm
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First, regarding the action in and of itself. It certainly does seem to be politically motivated and rather ill-conceived. If Dr. Savage were on a list of, say, thousands of people spanning all nations and philosophies, then I think the Crown could more easily justify the decision. But as one of sixteen? Are they really trying to say that of the six billion people on earth, only fifteen others are as dangerous as he is? That's a pretty ridiculous assertion no matter what rubric is used.
Secondly, regarding Dr. Savage's behavior on Talk of the Nation. He certainly didn't do himself any favors. He continually referred to his First Amendment rights as if that actually meant something regarding the government of another sovereign nation. He wouldn't answer the question regarding whether another sovereign nation had the right to bar entry from whoever they so chose, and when pressed, finally responded with a weak, "I don't know." And at the barest hint of disagreement (At least, that's what I think it was), he resorted to baseless ad hominem attacks and threw a temper tantrum and stormed out of the program.
Actually, it seems attacking those posing the argument instead of attacking the merits of the argument instead seems to be his modus operandi given that he started off by using old, tired stereotypes to insult the people of the United Kingdom regarding their teeth and their food.
A small silver lining: such a ridiculous news story does have the potential to spark genuine debate on the intricacies of free speech and what does and does not constitute hate speech or incitement to violence. Of course, this discussion would be much better discussed among attorneys, cognitive scientists, and philosophers of language than it would be if it is discussed only among politicians and pundits.
Personally, I'd argue that with regard to incitement, it depends just as much, possibly more, on the delivery of the words rather than the words themselves. Imagine if all the things Michael Savage were saying were said, word for word, in Ben Stein's monotone. It seems rather far-fetched that a lynch mob would assemble in such a case. But take those same words telling people to be terrified of the Other and how their way of life is being threatened by the Not Us and imagine them being spoken in a rapid, frenetic, voice with a rising inflection and gradual crescendo climaxing in the words being nearly screamed out, then it's very easy to imagine someone acting on those feelings of fear that are being communicated.
Tags: philosophy, speech
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So it tried hard to include few non-muslims in the banned list.
But look at these Michael Savage quotes, that helped UK:
"... I'll tell you what autism is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream and they're silent? They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz. Straighten up. Act like a man. Don't sit there crying and screaming, idiot.'"
* - The Savage Nation, July 16, 2008
You know, when I see a woman walking around with a burqa, I see a Nazi. That's what I see -- how do you like that? -- a hateful Nazi who would like to cut your throat and kill your children. Don't give me this crap that they're doing it out of a sacred ritual or rite. It's not required by the Quran that a woman walk around in a seventh-century drape. She's doing it to spit in your face. She's saying, "You white moron, you, I'm going to kill you if I can." That's how I see it!
July 2, 2007
God abhors a spiritual
vacuum. That is why he has permitted, in fact probably not only permitted, but in a way orchestrated the rise of radical Islam.
... It's becoming increasingly clear to me that God wants radical Islam on this planet at this time -- that it's not actually the scourge you think it is. What it is -- it's a counterpoint to the Romanization of the United States of America and the West. The collapse -- the spiritual collapse of the West, the death of the West in that regard, is being countered by the birth of fanatic religion, which is fundamentally a fanatic love of God, when you think about it.
... And God, who is the center of this monotheistic religion, has said, "Oh, you don't worship me anymore? Oh, you don't like me anymore? Oh, I don't exist anymore? Really? All right, I'm going to show you boys in Hollywood and you girls in New York City that I do exist. But since you're very hard-headed, stiff-necked people, and you don't really believe that I exist because you've gotten away with everything you've done all your life without any repercussions, I'm going to show you I exist in a way that you can't believe." Down came the World Trade Center towers. That was God speaking.
March 27, 2007
Source(s):
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Savage
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Answered Question
M$5
May 06, 2009 01:35 AM
Perspective: Michael Savage banned from the UK, and his appearance on NPR's Talk of the Nation earlier today ... what the deuce?
Here's the story ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124156408654189295.html
... and to the audio ...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103819122
Michael Savage, right-leaning (politely) talk show host - and notably, the talk-radio host with the 3rd largest ratings in the country behind Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity - was banned from the U.K. in a recent move by Britain's Jacqueline Smith.
Also on the list of 16 banned people were neo-nazis and others cited for terrorist actions.
What does the MA community make of this? Both the action itself and Dr. Savage's handling of himself on TotN?
Personally, I disagree with just about everything that comes out of Savage's face. I consider myself a bleeding heart, through and through.
I'm also vexed by his continuous citing of the 1st Amendment in regards to a UNITED KINGDOM policy.
I think he handled himself deplorably on Talk of the Nation, lashing out at host Neil Conan and ripping into the caller that disagreed with him.
But personally, I don't think his character is remotely bordering a level of encouraging violence and terrorist activity. Incendiary, sure. Violent? That's up to the listener.
To ban him from entering a country because of his opinions seems a bit much, as it seems a decision based on contrary dogmas rather than action he's personally responsible for.
Eh?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124156408654189295.html
... and to the audio ...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103819122
Michael Savage, right-leaning (politely) talk show host - and notably, the talk-radio host with the 3rd largest ratings in the country behind Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity - was banned from the U.K. in a recent move by Britain's Jacqueline Smith.
Also on the list of 16 banned people were neo-nazis and others cited for terrorist actions.
What does the MA community make of this? Both the action itself and Dr. Savage's handling of himself on TotN?
Personally, I disagree with just about everything that comes out of Savage's face. I consider myself a bleeding heart, through and through.
I'm also vexed by his continuous citing of the 1st Amendment in regards to a UNITED KINGDOM policy.
I think he handled himself deplorably on Talk of the Nation, lashing out at host Neil Conan and ripping into the caller that disagreed with him.
But personally, I don't think his character is remotely bordering a level of encouraging violence and terrorist activity. Incendiary, sure. Violent? That's up to the listener.
To ban him from entering a country because of his opinions seems a bit much, as it seems a decision based on contrary dogmas rather than action he's personally responsible for.
Eh?
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- Tags: banned, michaelsavage, uk |
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| May 06, 2009 01:49 AM |
At the end of the day the United Kingdom can govern how they see fit, maybe by banning such a popular (how?) American figure would bring attention to their list. Personally, this story makes me go "meh" nothing anybody can really do about it, it's like if Saudi Arabia banned Bill Maher.
My good buddies The Young Turks have been speaking out about this guy for awhile, they are the only reason I know who Michael Savage is.
Here is a sample of Savage's hate speech, you can understand why Britain would ban such a fellow, this is "hate" at it's finest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWGrqBKojXY
Tags: theyoungturks, hate
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Helpful: phillipluther, morriss003, maurice
Tip jeffhoard for this answerVoted as best: pats
Other Answers (4)
May 06, 2009 02:01 AM
Britain does not have a First Amendment but they do have a long tradition of free speech. It applies to British people though. They also in recent years have not tolerated incitement to racial hatred and similar speech. Here is what the BBC reports about the Hate Radio guy:
" Considered to be engaging in unacceptable behaviour by seeking to provoke others to serious criminal acts and fostering hatred which might lead to inter-community violence.
His views on immigration, Islam, rape and autism have caused great offence in the US. "
So he falls into the category of undesirable folks that they don't want visiting Britain. I imagine they are particularly concerned that he would stir up hatred of immigrants and the Islamic minority which is a perennial problem.
I hope we never have to do something similar here; but, the Hate Radio guys and crazy preachers are stirring up a large, uneducated segment of the population towards ever greater ignorance and hate. Plain education isn't working as well as it should because families are avoiding it via home schooling and religious controlled schools. NPR by itself isn't enough, I don't know what we should do. Banning home schooling and taxing all religious institutions might help a lot.
Source(s):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8033319.stm
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May 06, 2009 02:10 AM
- Fact Refuted
Home schooled kids outperform government schooled kids. Why would you want to ban home schooling?
http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm
"Plain education isn't working as well as it should because families are avoiding it"
Wow. Just wow.
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http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm
"Plain education isn't working as well as it should because families are avoiding it"
Wow. Just wow.
May 06, 2009 02:24 AM
Because I don't believe a word of those biased studies claiming good things about home schooling. We went over this at length in detail in some past questions. Home schooling provides neither a good nor a balanced education unless the parents happen to be highly educated. You are missusing the fact refuted and the unhelpful answer checkbox. Your disagreeing with me about home schooling has nothing to do with the validity of my opinion on this question about free speech in Britain.
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May 06, 2009 02:26 AM
i'm in the dark RE: home-schooling; i'm a product of the public school system K-12 and the ridiculously over-priced, private, tier-one university system.
both sucked.
i'm a little suspect of the article you cited, though ... it's from 2000 and i can't seem to locate it on the WSJ site.
maybe the perception is that home-schooling doesn't offer the wide gamut of social, religious, and economic views?
if your parents raise you, teach you, and decide whether you pass/fail at any educational milestones that show up ... i could see where that might have the potential to be a little one-dimensional.
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both sucked.
i'm a little suspect of the article you cited, though ... it's from 2000 and i can't seem to locate it on the WSJ site.
maybe the perception is that home-schooling doesn't offer the wide gamut of social, religious, and economic views?
if your parents raise you, teach you, and decide whether you pass/fail at any educational milestones that show up ... i could see where that might have the potential to be a little one-dimensional.
May 06, 2009 02:29 AM
@albanian ... "You are missusing the fact refuted and the unhelpful answer checkbox"
i agree ... my original intent of this thread was to ferret out perspectives. i don't think it's possible to have an unhelpful answer on this particular turtle swimming through space.
unless you're glib and wielding a single-word response.
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i agree ... my original intent of this thread was to ferret out perspectives. i don't think it's possible to have an unhelpful answer on this particular turtle swimming through space.
unless you're glib and wielding a single-word response.
May 06, 2009 02:46 AM
"We went over this at length in detail in some past questions"
You're the one that brought up home schooling in a thread about free speech and now you're saying "off limits"?
My disagreement with your citation of home schooling as a causative element of what you characterize as "hate speech" has everything to do with the validity of your opinions.
The average free-thinking intuitionists would call all of your opinions into question when you reveal yourself as what you decry by spouting your own brand of hate.
Report
You're the one that brought up home schooling in a thread about free speech and now you're saying "off limits"?
My disagreement with your citation of home schooling as a causative element of what you characterize as "hate speech" has everything to do with the validity of your opinions.
The average free-thinking intuitionists would call all of your opinions into question when you reveal yourself as what you decry by spouting your own brand of hate.
May 06, 2009 02:55 AM
Yes I brought up home schooling as a likely cause of ignorance but that does not mean my answer is unhelpful even if you disagree. And your one source, as interpreted by you, does not constitute a fact refuted. If you read it more carefully you would see it supports my position just as much. You are welcome to disagree with me but don't call my reasoned opinion not helpful or refuted just because you disagree with it.
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May 06, 2009 03:12 AM
"You are welcome to disagree with me but don't call my reasoned opinion not helpful or refuted just because you disagree with it".
Just so we're clear here; I counter your opinion and sources with my own, and you call foul?
I call your citation of home-schooling as the cause of hate speech (A huge stretch of reason) unhelpful, and you claim it as a misuse of the unhelpful feature?
Perhaps we should just smile, wave, and back away slowly. Whattya say?
Report
Just so we're clear here; I counter your opinion and sources with my own, and you call foul?
I call your citation of home-schooling as the cause of hate speech (A huge stretch of reason) unhelpful, and you claim it as a misuse of the unhelpful feature?
Perhaps we should just smile, wave, and back away slowly. Whattya say?
May 06, 2009 09:00 AM
I'll try once more to explain what I am crying foul about and if it's not clear try asking a question about it in the Mahalo answers community topic.
The helpful/unhelpful feature does not mean agree/disagree. It is for one word, incoherent, or off topic answers not ones you disagree with.
The fact refuted feature is for actual, simple factual mistakes not debatable points or interpretations. In this case, suppose I said that he should not have be excluded from Britain because of his First Amendment rights, then you could have refuted the fact as Britain does not have the American constitution. In actuality in this question we are interpreting the sources and studies differently in a long debated point about home schooling and giving different weight to them.
Report
The helpful/unhelpful feature does not mean agree/disagree. It is for one word, incoherent, or off topic answers not ones you disagree with.
The fact refuted feature is for actual, simple factual mistakes not debatable points or interpretations. In this case, suppose I said that he should not have be excluded from Britain because of his First Amendment rights, then you could have refuted the fact as Britain does not have the American constitution. In actuality in this question we are interpreting the sources and studies differently in a long debated point about home schooling and giving different weight to them.
May 06, 2009 11:51 AM
"Plain education isn't working as well as it should because families are avoiding it"
That is an incoherent, off topic statement. In fact, it's outright jibberish. Therefore, according to your definition, I used the disagree button correctly.
It is also a factual mistake. Your refusal to agree that you made an error does not constitute establishment of accuracy of your original fallacious statement.
You've not cited a source to back up your opinion of home schooling, therefore, we're left with the thought that you expect us just to accept your statement as truth. Why would I, or anyone else, do that?
Report
That is an incoherent, off topic statement. In fact, it's outright jibberish. Therefore, according to your definition, I used the disagree button correctly.
It is also a factual mistake. Your refusal to agree that you made an error does not constitute establishment of accuracy of your original fallacious statement.
You've not cited a source to back up your opinion of home schooling, therefore, we're left with the thought that you expect us just to accept your statement as truth. Why would I, or anyone else, do that?
May 06, 2009 01:17 PM
Maybe if I sort of diagram it you will follow the reasoning of my last paragraph even if you disagree with it. (persona non grata) is caused by (hate radio broadcasts) is caused by (ignorant audience) is caused by (avoiding education) is caused by (home schooling and religious schools).
The source you give does not refute that home schooling is poor education, it only discusses the debate and includes some arguments (poor ones) on the pro-home schooling side. In particular, you cannot argue that it is good just because of a few successful students, and the comparison of SAT scores is unscientific because the schools make everyone take the test while only those home schoolers hoping for a good college take them not the majority.
Report
The source you give does not refute that home schooling is poor education, it only discusses the debate and includes some arguments (poor ones) on the pro-home schooling side. In particular, you cannot argue that it is good just because of a few successful students, and the comparison of SAT scores is unscientific because the schools make everyone take the test while only those home schoolers hoping for a good college take them not the majority.
May 06, 2009 04:24 AM
An answer, in two parts (since it's a two part question), with a coda. First, regarding the action in and of itself. It certainly does seem to be politically motivated and rather ill-conceived. If Dr. Savage were on a list of, say, thousands of people spanning all nations and philosophies, then I think the Crown could more easily justify the decision. But as one of sixteen? Are they really trying to say that of the six billion people on earth, only fifteen others are as dangerous as he is? That's a pretty ridiculous assertion no matter what rubric is used.
Secondly, regarding Dr. Savage's behavior on Talk of the Nation. He certainly didn't do himself any favors. He continually referred to his First Amendment rights as if that actually meant something regarding the government of another sovereign nation. He wouldn't answer the question regarding whether another sovereign nation had the right to bar entry from whoever they so chose, and when pressed, finally responded with a weak, "I don't know." And at the barest hint of disagreement (At least, that's what I think it was), he resorted to baseless ad hominem attacks and threw a temper tantrum and stormed out of the program.
Actually, it seems attacking those posing the argument instead of attacking the merits of the argument instead seems to be his modus operandi given that he started off by using old, tired stereotypes to insult the people of the United Kingdom regarding their teeth and their food.
A small silver lining: such a ridiculous news story does have the potential to spark genuine debate on the intricacies of free speech and what does and does not constitute hate speech or incitement to violence. Of course, this discussion would be much better discussed among attorneys, cognitive scientists, and philosophers of language than it would be if it is discussed only among politicians and pundits.
Personally, I'd argue that with regard to incitement, it depends just as much, possibly more, on the delivery of the words rather than the words themselves. Imagine if all the things Michael Savage were saying were said, word for word, in Ben Stein's monotone. It seems rather far-fetched that a lynch mob would assemble in such a case. But take those same words telling people to be terrified of the Other and how their way of life is being threatened by the Not Us and imagine them being spoken in a rapid, frenetic, voice with a rising inflection and gradual crescendo climaxing in the words being nearly screamed out, then it's very easy to imagine someone acting on those feelings of fear that are being communicated.
Tags: philosophy, speech
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Helpful: pmacdon1, mattb4rd, maurice, hcp56, daigakuinsei, phillipluther
Tip cochese for this answer
May 06, 2009 01:22 PM
great insight in the coda on tone and delivery.
one thing has me uneasy, though ...
quoth cochese, "... such a ridiculous news story does have the potential to spark genuine debate on the intricacies of free speech and what does and does not constitute hate speech or incitement to violence."
does it, i wonder?
perhaps it's a too-jaded assessment, but i fear that it's impossible for us (Americans) to explore any free-speech VS. incitement-speech ramifications of this on a lasting scale. the media will either carry it as a great travesty or as due come-uppance.
and then move on. and while the attorneys, cognitive scientists, and disciples of Putnam will likely take a look at it, the masses will be hard pressed to come across it.
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one thing has me uneasy, though ...
quoth cochese, "... such a ridiculous news story does have the potential to spark genuine debate on the intricacies of free speech and what does and does not constitute hate speech or incitement to violence."
does it, i wonder?
perhaps it's a too-jaded assessment, but i fear that it's impossible for us (Americans) to explore any free-speech VS. incitement-speech ramifications of this on a lasting scale. the media will either carry it as a great travesty or as due come-uppance.
and then move on. and while the attorneys, cognitive scientists, and disciples of Putnam will likely take a look at it, the masses will be hard pressed to come across it.
May 06, 2009 09:05 PM
Oh, it certainly has the potential to spark genuine debate. Whether it actually does spark genuine debate is another question entirely. Like you, I also doubt this will actually happen, but I'm hopeful that at a few previously closed minds will start to think about it from a way they didn't before. Oh, if only something like this were discussed on Law and Order or the like. That seems to be the only way to get through to many people.
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May 07, 2009 12:22 AM
I agree with the "... small silver lining ..." as described by cochese, In fact, some debate on free speech is happening here within the Mahalo community thanks to the question.
Michael Savage is free to spout his message where he has that right as a citizen - in the US, but he obviously isn't free to speak like that in the UK where he would be expected to behave like a guest and not a citizen. After listening to him, I wouldn't want him as a guest in my house either.
I'm sure the UK has enough home-grown bigots who do possess (as citizens) the guaranteed right to free speech and who do use that right to speak messages just as hateful as those of Michael Savage. The UK doesn't need to rely on imports. But, quite simply they see him as a threat to their security and they are defending themselves.
It is a sovereignty issue not a free speech issue. And it is completely the UK's call.
On the lighter side here is a link to other people banned from England: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-walker/other-people-banned-from_b_197778.html
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Michael Savage is free to spout his message where he has that right as a citizen - in the US, but he obviously isn't free to speak like that in the UK where he would be expected to behave like a guest and not a citizen. After listening to him, I wouldn't want him as a guest in my house either.
I'm sure the UK has enough home-grown bigots who do possess (as citizens) the guaranteed right to free speech and who do use that right to speak messages just as hateful as those of Michael Savage. The UK doesn't need to rely on imports. But, quite simply they see him as a threat to their security and they are defending themselves.
It is a sovereignty issue not a free speech issue. And it is completely the UK's call.
On the lighter side here is a link to other people banned from England: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-walker/other-people-banned-from_b_197778.html
May 06, 2009 01:38 PM
he's not really, though. entitled to speak his mind any where in the world.
he's entitled to speak his mind in America, because doing so is expressly outlined in our Bill of Rights.
but there are several places on earth where one does not have the right to speak one's mind.
i've a hunch you're absolutely right that his career won't be affected, though - in fact, i bet his ratings RISE on account of this.
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he's entitled to speak his mind in America, because doing so is expressly outlined in our Bill of Rights.
but there are several places on earth where one does not have the right to speak one's mind.
i've a hunch you're absolutely right that his career won't be affected, though - in fact, i bet his ratings RISE on account of this.
May 06, 2009 07:18 PM
UK wanted to show the word, that it is secular! So it tried hard to include few non-muslims in the banned list.
But look at these Michael Savage quotes, that helped UK:
"... I'll tell you what autism is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream and they're silent? They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz. Straighten up. Act like a man. Don't sit there crying and screaming, idiot.'"
* - The Savage Nation, July 16, 2008
You know, when I see a woman walking around with a burqa, I see a Nazi. That's what I see -- how do you like that? -- a hateful Nazi who would like to cut your throat and kill your children. Don't give me this crap that they're doing it out of a sacred ritual or rite. It's not required by the Quran that a woman walk around in a seventh-century drape. She's doing it to spit in your face. She's saying, "You white moron, you, I'm going to kill you if I can." That's how I see it!
July 2, 2007
God abhors a spiritual
vacuum. That is why he has permitted, in fact probably not only permitted, but in a way orchestrated the rise of radical Islam.
... It's becoming increasingly clear to me that God wants radical Islam on this planet at this time -- that it's not actually the scourge you think it is. What it is -- it's a counterpoint to the Romanization of the United States of America and the West. The collapse -- the spiritual collapse of the West, the death of the West in that regard, is being countered by the birth of fanatic religion, which is fundamentally a fanatic love of God, when you think about it.
... And God, who is the center of this monotheistic religion, has said, "Oh, you don't worship me anymore? Oh, you don't like me anymore? Oh, I don't exist anymore? Really? All right, I'm going to show you boys in Hollywood and you girls in New York City that I do exist. But since you're very hard-headed, stiff-necked people, and you don't really believe that I exist because you've gotten away with everything you've done all your life without any repercussions, I'm going to show you I exist in a way that you can't believe." Down came the World Trade Center towers. That was God speaking.
March 27, 2007
Source(s):
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Savage
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"liberal shows, that's dangerous. freak ... fringe ... that's what Rush Limbaugh told me" - that's hilarious.
maybe i'm a little desensitized to the amount of "hate" in the American media - but i still don't think he should be banned from a country for opinions.
counterpoint, where does one draw the line between the constitutional right for somebody to fly off the handle and where it becomes an urge to act?
anywho, thanks for the clip!
i took a three-day weekend vacation, and apparently this question was force-closed while i did.
note to user from Mahalo Answers: don't go on vacation with open questions.
weak.