Should the "Pledge of Allegiance" be recited in public schools?
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M$14 Answers
However there's something to be said for repetition. It ingrains those words into your brain whether you realize it or not at the time. Maybe you were even more poignant with your statement of "...maybe, subconsciously, it made me proud to be an American."
I'm a huge patriot. I love this country for all of it's wonders and flaws. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think it's a bonding experience to recite that pledge every morning. If they didn't, when would anyone say it? When would they learn it? Would it ever come to mean anything even down the line?
Here's the most important question - as Americans - what would be wrong with reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in American schools? Can't hurt right? Sure can help though. I'm for it.
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M$'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all'
...and way prefer the original
'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all'
I consider the original to be better worded, more concise. The needless flag clarification is weird to me and the religious 'under god' is utterly abhorrent to many, myself included.
Many children get a 'pass out' on religious grounds, many are not even US citizens and only mumble the words to avoid standing out.
Either ditch the ritual or re-write it :)
please.
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M$
Agreed.
Here is a good article about the pledge and its changes: http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/pledgeandgod.htm
My thoughts exactly
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I have never said the Pledge of Allegiance. I always stand during the pledge out of respect, but my allegiance goes to God.
If you want to live in the U.S., send your kids to our public schools, work in our businesses, and take our welfare, you had darn well better be pledging allegiance to our flag. If you have allegiance to any other country first, you need to go live there.
We need to teach our children respect for their country, and this is one guaranteed way to do it. I doubt I would be half as patriotic as I am today if I hadn't had to recite that pledge every morning for all those years. How many traditions do we have to kill in this country, just because a few people don't like it?
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M$
Patriotism is the cousin of nationalism.
Maybe, but don't lump me in with nationalists because I believe you should support the country that provides you with a living. Although, to be honest, I am in favor of closing the borders to immigrants right now, until we can support the ones we have, and weed out the illegals.
I'm sure that if I were ever to find myself in a position running meetings such as these, or running a public K-12 school, I would run headlong into arguments with those individuals who feel that somehow these rote and (I think) inappropriate expressions of national zealotry and private religious beliefs belong in a public place.
Despite arguments to the contrary, ours is a secular state. Prayer, and in particular, christian prayer, is an infringement upon the secular process. Just try to do a muslim or jewish prayer before such a meeting, and I believe you'll have a riot amongst the christians who feel singularly entitled to practice their religion in this context. Religious beliefs are important to individuals, too important to let one religion dictate to all others or intercede with the gods of others in public fora. I also think an inordinate amount of attention to pledges is unhealthy.
personal opinion
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M$
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M$
I believe we have gone way past the point to where we are "settle immigrants". My blood line is Irish and American Indian. Requardless where my history takes me I am 1 thing. An American. I serve this country and I protect the freedoms we all have. I hate hearing ppl say that this country has gone to hell yet they do absolutly nothing to help it. We all want whats best. This could branch into alot of different conversations.
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to) the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
Of course around world war two this all became a little awkward, as did the name "adolf" and the traditional military goose-step. Thats when we changed to the hand-over-heart salute for civilians. Shortly after World War 2, during the height of the Red Scare, a decade or two of hard lobbying by the "Knights of Columbus" and other extremely religious groups came to fruition when the newly presbyterian baptized President Eisenhower was basically worked over by a local church on lincolns birthday and finally the legislation to alter the pledge to it's current form was passed.
Now... do you really think that triumph of religious extremism and intolerance from one of our darkest eras as a nation is something we should be forcing on our children every day? Is it really a pledge of allegiance if we need to force them to say it? If we punish them when they don't?
I know I'm an american, and I know what I'm loyal to. It is not the god of McCarthy and Eisenhower.
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M$
You're answer effected me enough that I feel compelled to suggest that something more might be going on.
Birthday cards were created for the sole benefit of commercial companies, but that doesn't take anything away from the love, pride or loyalty I feel when I send them to someone.
If the Pledge were everything you say it is, the moral majority of this nation would never have embraced it. Maybe it started out as a marketing promotion for it's author, but the people embraced it as something that touched their heart and sensibilities.
Many people have fought and died to protect our right to say what we want ( and not say what we don't want to).
The Pledge to that flag is a part of our history. If a child (or parents of a child) feel that the pledge some how violates their rights as an American, by all means do not participate, but don't take that right away from the people who are proud of the country they live in. If you don't believe "God" should be a part of it, slip whatever you want in there. It's not like we live in place where they will cut out your tongue for saying something different.
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M$
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M$
From 1776 to 1862 the USA was really a group of united States and given the limitations of communication and transportation, loyalty was much more aligned with the immediate community and State. Add to that the fact that everyone alive at least had a grandparent who told them direct stories of their involvement in the Revolution itself. Finally, we as yet were not venturing out into the greater world (to war or other competition) so the need for a unifying allegiance to each other was not compelling.
Between 1776-1892 there was non pledge. How did the Americans then have any pride?
This is a bad idea left over from WWI when no one thought twice about propaganda.
It is bad for the kids to be forced to conform in an unthinking fashion.
It is disrespectful to the country to make a fetish of its flag.
The Cold War addition of religion made the bad idea worse because it conflicts with both secular people and many religions.
There is absolutely no positive or beneficial effect from this, it at best makes some of the parents feel good (but others bad).
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M$1. "under God" made non sense to me and even made me a little uncomfortable. My family being the only buddhist vietnamese refugees in my small Indiana town.
2. Who was this Richard Stands fellow and who is woman named Liberty with him?
Why did I keep to have to mentioning his name each day?
I eventually figured out I was supposed to be saying "for which it stands."
My childhood.
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M$
At my school, the entire student body (about 700 children) say the pledge at the same time each day. These kids range in age from 5 to 15. While doing this everyday, I wonder what the students are thinking when they say these words. I would be willing to bet that they aren't thinking about what they are saying at all. Furthermore, I doubt that most of the students in my school, even the oldest, can comprehend all of the vocabulary of the pledge. I want to take a poll to see how many know what the word "allegiance" means. This would be a great lesson to teach...decoding the pledge of allegiance, even though I teach science. :)
I also have issue with the religious addendum to the pledge, but that is a whole 'nother issue.
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M$A couple of years ago, there was a girl in my daughter's Girl Scouts troop who was Australian. Her dad was sent here on business, and they'd lived here several years, but retained citizenship. Her mom was fine with her being in the troop, but uncomfortable with her taking a pledge of allegiance to another country. She was allowed to sit out the pledge, and she was definitely welcomed into the troop, but after a couple of years they ended up leaving the troop (and then the country). I completely understood that, and would feel the same way if I lived in another country.
I think it may be a little different here in North America, where the U.S. and Canada are friendly and share quite a bit of history via the colonial background and heritage. It's very different in Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Africa where chances are there are countries nearby that are at an uneasy truce at best and outright war at worst. In these cases, perhaps people are more aware that by pledging allegiance to your flag and the country it symbolizes, you're pledging your help to your neighbors. You're vowing not to let the enemy in at the gate in the middle of the night.
In the U.S., where we haven't had a war with a foreign power on our continental soil in nearly 200 years, it's a little less real and immediate, perhaps. It seems about the only people I've seen who get upset about kids being taught patriotism are those who seem to have problems with anything traditional. There seems to be a certain fad for rejecting things just because they're traditional, with just as little thought as those who accept them just because they're traditional.
Sure, kids can't understand the full implications of this at the age of 5 or even 10. But like many things, the foundation needs to be laid while they're young. They can explore the fuller implications when they're able.
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M$
'I guess I don't understand why anyone would choose to live in a country and then not want to pledge to it. I'm assuming if you don't want your kids to pledge allegiance to it, you wouldn't want to pledge allegiance to it yourself. '
Dead easy.
I choose to live in the US, because I can enjoy a much better standard of living, much better weather (I live in SoCal) and I get to work on interesting tech projects.
Where I choose to live has absolutely nothing at all to do with my allegiance.
On July 4th I proudly wear my Union jack tee shirt all day. Much to the amusement of my friend and many others, I get good natured banter and everyone finds it funny/cool that I do this.
I always stand and remove my hat when the national anthem is played out of respect, but I will not swear my allegiance to this country, because it in not my home country. My passport says that I am British, I was born on British soil. Despite living in the US for a quarter of my life I am still British.
Why would I want to swear my allegiance anywhere else ?
My child has spent almost half of his life here, he has 'mumbled' the pledge or changed the words in his head daily. He too loves it here, but is also a Brit. Sure he has an American accent, but ask him what he considers himself to be and he will show you his 'Made in England' tat.
At some point we will apply to become American citizens, but this will purely be for convenience sake.
How about we just pledge allegiance as an earthling? In this young 21st century, should children think that borders exists among fellow humans?
Emaren, just as I said, I completely understood my Australian friend who didn't want to pledge allegiance to a country not her own. But for citizens, I expect it.
Tranhawk, there are borders, and they are real. Try breaking laws in other countries as a U.S. citizen to find out just how real they are. Ask the people on the flight in Detroit a couple of months ago if there is any reason to have borders?
A red blooded American.
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M$
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M$
well, it never was a burden to me to do it. if someone don't feel the need to do it, just don't do it without trying to get people pay attention to their desires. there are a lot of students out there and their parents (i believe) who aren't making a big deal out of it.