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November 06, 2009 07:36 PM
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Computational equivalence states that systems found in the natural world can perform computations up to a universal level of computational power.
-quote-
"The principle states that systems found in the natural world can perform computations up to a maximal ("universal") level of computational power. Most systems can attain this level. Systems, in principle, compute the same things as a computer. Computation is therefore simply a question of translating inputs and outputs from one system to another. Consequently, most systems are computationally equivalent. Proposed examples of such systems are the workings of the human brain and the evolution of weather systems."
-end of quote-
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science#Principle_of_computation...
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-- Quote
More specifically, the principle of computational equivalence says that systems found in the natural world can perform computations up to a maximal ("universal") level of computational power, and that most systems do in fact attain this maximal level of computational power. Consequently, most systems are computationally equivalent. For example, the workings of the human brain or the evolution of weather systems can, in principle, compute the same things as a computer. Computation is therefore simply a question of translating inputs and outputs from one system to another.
-- /Quote
Basically it seems down to boil down to the unprovable assertion that pretty much everything of interest in the real world can be exactly simulated on a conventional computer.
Unprovable doesn't mean false, here.
It might be true, but even if it was, there's no way to prove it true. And it's not easy to prove it false either because you'd have to show that something *can't* be simulated on a computer, not just that we currently haven't been able to figure out how to do it, or current computers aren't fast enough or whatever.
We can prove some theorems about what conventional computers can't do, like the halting problem (you can't write a program that can check any program and decide for sure if it always terminates) but presumably he doesn't count those kinds of problems as interesting real world systems.
Personally, I can't see any reason to think this assertion is true.
It's a bit like back in time people thought they could understand everything with calculus and linear algebra. Turned out they were so busy analysing everything that could be done with those tools they hardly stopped to notice all the many things they had no clue about how to tackle, imagining that more of the same would do the trick.
More discussion of these things here:
http://jurvetson.blogspot.com/2004/08/quantum-computational-equivalence.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science#Principle_of_computational_equivalence
http://www.juniata.edu/faculty/rhodes/intro/theory2.htm
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davepamn
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What is computational equivalence described by Stephen Wolfram?
What does computational equivalence mean and how is Wolfram using computational equivalence to build a universal machine?
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| November 08, 2009 01:02 PM |
-quote-
"The principle states that systems found in the natural world can perform computations up to a maximal ("universal") level of computational power. Most systems can attain this level. Systems, in principle, compute the same things as a computer. Computation is therefore simply a question of translating inputs and outputs from one system to another. Consequently, most systems are computationally equivalent. Proposed examples of such systems are the workings of the human brain and the evolution of weather systems."
-end of quote-
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science#Principle_of_computation...
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• Will CA encapsulate Chaos theory?
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November 06, 2009 08:01 PM
Never heard of this before, but according to his site... -- Quote
More specifically, the principle of computational equivalence says that systems found in the natural world can perform computations up to a maximal ("universal") level of computational power, and that most systems do in fact attain this maximal level of computational power. Consequently, most systems are computationally equivalent. For example, the workings of the human brain or the evolution of weather systems can, in principle, compute the same things as a computer. Computation is therefore simply a question of translating inputs and outputs from one system to another.
-- /Quote
Basically it seems down to boil down to the unprovable assertion that pretty much everything of interest in the real world can be exactly simulated on a conventional computer.
Unprovable doesn't mean false, here.
It might be true, but even if it was, there's no way to prove it true. And it's not easy to prove it false either because you'd have to show that something *can't* be simulated on a computer, not just that we currently haven't been able to figure out how to do it, or current computers aren't fast enough or whatever.
We can prove some theorems about what conventional computers can't do, like the halting problem (you can't write a program that can check any program and decide for sure if it always terminates) but presumably he doesn't count those kinds of problems as interesting real world systems.
Personally, I can't see any reason to think this assertion is true.
It's a bit like back in time people thought they could understand everything with calculus and linear algebra. Turned out they were so busy analysing everything that could be done with those tools they hardly stopped to notice all the many things they had no clue about how to tackle, imagining that more of the same would do the trick.
More discussion of these things here:
http://jurvetson.blogspot.com/2004/08/quantum-computational-equivalence.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science#Principle_of_computational_equivalence
http://www.juniata.edu/faculty/rhodes/intro/theory2.htm
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davepamn
November 06, 2009 09:42 PM
Computational equivalence means a simple program could create a sophisticated behavior. A super complex program is not needed to create a complex behavior. Wolfram suggest Natural selection may be a computational equivalent program resulting in near infinite complexity. The catch is that the program will have to be run out to see what it does. The program can not be reversed or predicted. To me, it sounds alot like the "Artificial life" simulations. However, Wolfram claims that he has discovered many nature primatives or programs creating a foundation for other studies.
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November 07, 2009 02:48 AM
I think maybe you're putting several of his ideas all into one and calling that "computational equivalence". From the definition on his site, he's using that term in a more specific way than you describe, though it is used as part of a chain of reasoning like the one you set out.
But I'm not sure why you asked the question if you already knew the answer! :)
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But I'm not sure why you asked the question if you already knew the answer! :)
November 07, 2009 05:45 AM
Philipy, I trying to provoke thought and discussion with the question. The concept of computational equivalence is more shocking than the propose of evolutionary biology.
Philipy think about what Wolfram is suggesting. Wolfram is saying that a simple program can have God like quality of creation and combined with a randomness suggests that nature is designing and defining reality. Now, that to me sounds like an illusion.
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Philipy think about what Wolfram is suggesting. Wolfram is saying that a simple program can have God like quality of creation and combined with a randomness suggests that nature is designing and defining reality. Now, that to me sounds like an illusion.
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