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August 21, 2009 02:35 PM
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Shorter than a billion years... probably. A lot of things take less than a billion years. They've been working on artificial life for 0.0000% of a billion years.
> As scientist attempt to create artificial life, do they run into the barieer of infinite complexity?
No. It's very complex, but not infinitely.
> Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
The DNA molecule is, in many ways, astonishingly simple. What's hard is the biochemical web that stems from it, e.g. this very oversimplified chart of cell chemical reactions:

Every reaction feeds back on itself, including which bits of DNA get expressed. And while the DNA code is itself fairly simple, the ways in which the DNA folds are not. Nor are the ways in which the proteins generated from the DNA fold. This stuff is murderously complicated, though far from infinite.
"Evolution" and "artificial life" are somewhat different topics. Evolution concerns the creation of new species, which happens all the time, from plain old breeding to genetically modified organisms. Artificial life is more difficult, since it's starting from scratch.
But there is considerable process in artificial life nonetheless. They have successfully created a made-to-order genone:http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/299/5609/1006?hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&FIRSTINDEX=0&maxtoshow=&HITS=10&fulltext=Craig+Venter&searchid=1&resourcetype=HWCIT
and found organisms pared down to a measley thousand genes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4166076.stm
which can be used to create life entirely from scratch.
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The project description:
___
The GOLEM@Home Project designed and evolved robotic lifeforms via a screensaver application. The screensaver randomly created a population of virtual robots on users' systems and then evolved them (the rule for evolution was survival of the robots who could move the greatest distance over an infinite plain). Every week or so a few of a user's robots moved to someone else's Golem screensaver and a few of someone else's robots moved to the user's screensaver (this feature could be disabled for users worried about security). The virtual robots contained design information that could be used to build actual working robots.
___
The project was stopped because evolution did not pass a certain complexity level, as the model was limiting its progress.
In the end, artificial evolution should indeed be possible. However, as evolution has taken millions and millions of years to get where we are now, an 'increased speed ' evolution might still take way too long for us to ever see any results.
Maybe that's a good thing, or we might end up with this:
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davepamn
A: First, a point of semantics: You need to be more precise about what you mean by "evolution", because "evolution", as a general phenomena, happens all the time, to all kinds of things, i.e., cultural features such as language evolve, as do galaxies, etc., plus you also need to be more precise about the mechanism of the evolution. Do you mean "natural selection"?
However, given the context, my guess is you're probably refering to the hypothesis that humans evolved from earlier life forms by a process of natural selection, as compared to the hypothesis that the earliest humans were invented and constructed in a complete, modern form by some other form of life having the technical skills and ability and will to do so.
Furthermore, as stated, the question doesn't make any sense, because evolution doesn't start until *after* life has begun.
If you're asking whether or not there are ways to speed up the triggering of life, the answer is: probably, but also probably not by much, because if the conditions are right, then, given the millions of chemical reactions per second that single atoms and molecules can go through when the temperature is right, combined with the gagillions of atoms and molecules available for recombination on an earth-sized ball of material, combined with the fact that atoms and molecules don't recombine randomly - rather, they are finicky about what kinds of bonds they will form with other atoms and molecules, the fact is it probably wouldn't take very long for some form of self-reproducing molecular organization to happen, and indeed, evidence indicates that life on earth started quite early, almost as soon as formation of the planet had settled down.
In other words, if the conditions are right, then it doesn't take very long to *start* life, but in terms of how fast it will evolve once started, there's a handful of factors that need to be taken into consideration in order to answer, i.e. is the environment changing, such that natural selection would force evolution? If so, how fast is the environment changing, such that the organism must change to be able to survive in the new environment? Is there more than one form of life, and if so, are they competing for the same resources? Are those different forms of life engaged in predation? Etc.
Q: As scientist attempt to create artificial life, do they run into the barieer of infinite complexity?
A: That depends upon the rules and conditions that the scientists set up for the building blocks and environment of the artificial life, but in the case of carbon-based organic life, the answer is no, because organic molecules do *not* recombine randomly. Rather, constituent atoms are somewhat finicky about what other atoms they will combine with, and how, which means, the natural laws controling how atoms will bond to form molecules puts a natural cap on infinite complexity.
Q: Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
A: The brain.
Q: What groups in the field of artificial life?
A: What groups what in the field of artificial life? I don't understand the question.
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If evolution is true then scientist should be able to shorten the time to create artificial life?
As scientist attempt to create artificial life, do they run into the barieer of infinite complexity?
Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
What groups in the field of artificial life?
Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
What groups in the field of artificial life?
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| August 21, 2009 04:22 PM |
> As scientist attempt to create artificial life, do they run into the barieer of infinite complexity?
No. It's very complex, but not infinitely.
> Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
The DNA molecule is, in many ways, astonishingly simple. What's hard is the biochemical web that stems from it, e.g. this very oversimplified chart of cell chemical reactions:

Every reaction feeds back on itself, including which bits of DNA get expressed. And while the DNA code is itself fairly simple, the ways in which the DNA folds are not. Nor are the ways in which the proteins generated from the DNA fold. This stuff is murderously complicated, though far from infinite.
"Evolution" and "artificial life" are somewhat different topics. Evolution concerns the creation of new species, which happens all the time, from plain old breeding to genetically modified organisms. Artificial life is more difficult, since it's starting from scratch.
But there is considerable process in artificial life nonetheless. They have successfully created a made-to-order genone:http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/299/5609/1006?hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&FIRSTINDEX=0&maxtoshow=&HITS=10&fulltext=Craig+Venter&searchid=1&resourcetype=HWCIT
and found organisms pared down to a measley thousand genes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4166076.stm
which can be used to create life entirely from scratch.
| Asker's Rating: |
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Other Answers (2)
August 21, 2009 02:52 PM
There have been many experiments on artificial evolution (for example: http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/thesis/), most notably the GOLEM@Home project, which used Distributed Computing to experiment with evolution on a grand scale. The project description:
___
The GOLEM@Home Project designed and evolved robotic lifeforms via a screensaver application. The screensaver randomly created a population of virtual robots on users' systems and then evolved them (the rule for evolution was survival of the robots who could move the greatest distance over an infinite plain). Every week or so a few of a user's robots moved to someone else's Golem screensaver and a few of someone else's robots moved to the user's screensaver (this feature could be disabled for users worried about security). The virtual robots contained design information that could be used to build actual working robots.
___
The project was stopped because evolution did not pass a certain complexity level, as the model was limiting its progress.
In the end, artificial evolution should indeed be possible. However, as evolution has taken millions and millions of years to get where we are now, an 'increased speed ' evolution might still take way too long for us to ever see any results.
Maybe that's a good thing, or we might end up with this:
Permalink | Report
davepamn
August 21, 2009 04:54 PM
Did the simulation use a Chaos strange attraction function?
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August 21, 2009 04:20 PM
Q: If evolution is true then scientist should be able to shorten the time to create artificial life? A: First, a point of semantics: You need to be more precise about what you mean by "evolution", because "evolution", as a general phenomena, happens all the time, to all kinds of things, i.e., cultural features such as language evolve, as do galaxies, etc., plus you also need to be more precise about the mechanism of the evolution. Do you mean "natural selection"?
However, given the context, my guess is you're probably refering to the hypothesis that humans evolved from earlier life forms by a process of natural selection, as compared to the hypothesis that the earliest humans were invented and constructed in a complete, modern form by some other form of life having the technical skills and ability and will to do so.
Furthermore, as stated, the question doesn't make any sense, because evolution doesn't start until *after* life has begun.
If you're asking whether or not there are ways to speed up the triggering of life, the answer is: probably, but also probably not by much, because if the conditions are right, then, given the millions of chemical reactions per second that single atoms and molecules can go through when the temperature is right, combined with the gagillions of atoms and molecules available for recombination on an earth-sized ball of material, combined with the fact that atoms and molecules don't recombine randomly - rather, they are finicky about what kinds of bonds they will form with other atoms and molecules, the fact is it probably wouldn't take very long for some form of self-reproducing molecular organization to happen, and indeed, evidence indicates that life on earth started quite early, almost as soon as formation of the planet had settled down.
In other words, if the conditions are right, then it doesn't take very long to *start* life, but in terms of how fast it will evolve once started, there's a handful of factors that need to be taken into consideration in order to answer, i.e. is the environment changing, such that natural selection would force evolution? If so, how fast is the environment changing, such that the organism must change to be able to survive in the new environment? Is there more than one form of life, and if so, are they competing for the same resources? Are those different forms of life engaged in predation? Etc.
Q: As scientist attempt to create artificial life, do they run into the barieer of infinite complexity?
A: That depends upon the rules and conditions that the scientists set up for the building blocks and environment of the artificial life, but in the case of carbon-based organic life, the answer is no, because organic molecules do *not* recombine randomly. Rather, constituent atoms are somewhat finicky about what other atoms they will combine with, and how, which means, the natural laws controling how atoms will bond to form molecules puts a natural cap on infinite complexity.
Q: Which is more complex, the brain or DNA molecule to understand?
A: The brain.
Q: What groups in the field of artificial life?
A: What groups what in the field of artificial life? I don't understand the question.
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August 21, 2009 04:56 PM
If evolution does not start before life then evolution can not be the force that caused life.
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August 21, 2009 04:58 PM
I'm supposing that life was complete in its pattern and then it began to transform or adapt rather than emerge.
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August 21, 2009 05:00 PM
I like how you have referenced complexity theory. Complexity theory seems to be a more accurate model of the real world.
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August 21, 2009 05:42 PM
"If evolution does not start before life then evolution can not be the force that caused life."
Whoever said it was? Evolution by Natural Selection is just a mechanism used to explain how life change *after* it started.
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Whoever said it was? Evolution by Natural Selection is just a mechanism used to explain how life change *after* it started.
August 21, 2009 06:06 PM
"I'm supposing that life was complete in its pattern and then it began to transform or adapt rather than emerge."
What do you mean by "complete in it's pattern"? Life just means a system of organization that can reproduce itself. Once there, it can change, whether by evolution from natural selection, into forms that look radically different, and it doesn't matter, as long as it can sustain the basic function of life, which is to reproduce itself.
Further to your statement about life having a "basic form", actually, take a look at the differences between the organization of prokaryotic cells versus eukaryotic cells, and you'll see that in terms of basic organization, they are virtual two distinct form of life.
As far as emergent evolution goes, do you really understand what it means?
It just means what happens when life changes the environment under which it started, such that in order to survive it has to change to survive in the new environment which its old self created.
For example, before 2.5 billion years ago the atmopshere of earth did not have oxygen... in fact, oxygen was toxic to life (survivors from that time are found today as anearobic bacteria). But then some photosynthetic bacteria developed a method of capturing energy from sunlight by using a biochemical reaction that produced oxygen as a waste product, and it started pumping oxygen into the atmosphere, poisoning most other life and forcing survivors down into dark, oxygenless hideaways.
The phtosynthetic bacteria producing the oxygen were initially able to survive themselves because the biochemical mechanism for extracting energy form sunlight would spit the oxygen waste-product out of the cell as fast as it was being produced, like exhaust, but eventually they'll polute their own environment, and free-radical oxygen would start seeping back into their cellular body, and it would poison them, until finally a cell evolved an enzyme called catylase which meanders through a cell looking for free-radical oxygen, and reducing it as fast as it is found...
And to this day, all forms of life living and breating in an oxygen atmosphere have that same enzyme catylase in every single cell in their body, for without it oxygen would be toxic.
And yes, eventually there evolved cells that not only could protect themselves from oxygen, but would start using it as the oxydizing agent for metabolism, but first they had to have the catylase.
By the time all of this settled (about 2.5 billion years ago) the earth had become a place with an oxygen atmosphere, unable to sustain ponds of the kinds of organic guck that life would have been able to start from, such that life had changed earth into a place where life would never be able to spontaniously start. Simply by living it had changed the very rules by which it used to live. That's Emergent Evolution.
Some metaphysical-type thinkers take the notion of emergent evolution to explain the existence of things like God, if there is a God.
i.e., Suppose there's not a God, but obviously humans wish there was, so, if humans reach a stage of technical development to be able to see that there is no God, then what's to stop them from saying, "To heck with it, if there's no God, there should be, so I guess it's our job to become that".
Emergent evolution of the metaphysical branch is used to answer questions like, if there is a God, where did He come from?
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What do you mean by "complete in it's pattern"? Life just means a system of organization that can reproduce itself. Once there, it can change, whether by evolution from natural selection, into forms that look radically different, and it doesn't matter, as long as it can sustain the basic function of life, which is to reproduce itself.
Further to your statement about life having a "basic form", actually, take a look at the differences between the organization of prokaryotic cells versus eukaryotic cells, and you'll see that in terms of basic organization, they are virtual two distinct form of life.
As far as emergent evolution goes, do you really understand what it means?
It just means what happens when life changes the environment under which it started, such that in order to survive it has to change to survive in the new environment which its old self created.
For example, before 2.5 billion years ago the atmopshere of earth did not have oxygen... in fact, oxygen was toxic to life (survivors from that time are found today as anearobic bacteria). But then some photosynthetic bacteria developed a method of capturing energy from sunlight by using a biochemical reaction that produced oxygen as a waste product, and it started pumping oxygen into the atmosphere, poisoning most other life and forcing survivors down into dark, oxygenless hideaways.
The phtosynthetic bacteria producing the oxygen were initially able to survive themselves because the biochemical mechanism for extracting energy form sunlight would spit the oxygen waste-product out of the cell as fast as it was being produced, like exhaust, but eventually they'll polute their own environment, and free-radical oxygen would start seeping back into their cellular body, and it would poison them, until finally a cell evolved an enzyme called catylase which meanders through a cell looking for free-radical oxygen, and reducing it as fast as it is found...
And to this day, all forms of life living and breating in an oxygen atmosphere have that same enzyme catylase in every single cell in their body, for without it oxygen would be toxic.
And yes, eventually there evolved cells that not only could protect themselves from oxygen, but would start using it as the oxydizing agent for metabolism, but first they had to have the catylase.
By the time all of this settled (about 2.5 billion years ago) the earth had become a place with an oxygen atmosphere, unable to sustain ponds of the kinds of organic guck that life would have been able to start from, such that life had changed earth into a place where life would never be able to spontaniously start. Simply by living it had changed the very rules by which it used to live. That's Emergent Evolution.
Some metaphysical-type thinkers take the notion of emergent evolution to explain the existence of things like God, if there is a God.
i.e., Suppose there's not a God, but obviously humans wish there was, so, if humans reach a stage of technical development to be able to see that there is no God, then what's to stop them from saying, "To heck with it, if there's no God, there should be, so I guess it's our job to become that".
Emergent evolution of the metaphysical branch is used to answer questions like, if there is a God, where did He come from?
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