RevShare Update
So I just wanted to update everyone on the state of rev-share at the moment. I know that it's been frustrating because account balances have been fluctuating as we try to fix things over the past few days. We've been finding issues layered upon issues as we try to correct both pages and answers rev-sharing. We've corrected a number of issues which will eliminate a lot of rev-share issues in the future. Here's what's currently fixed and what's currently not.
1) Page rev-share has run and completed successfully for what should have been the 7/15 payout - this is the final run of page rev-share. So if you are a PM or VM, your account balances have been updated to reflect this payout.
2) Answers rev-share overpayed for the 7/15 payout and we have since reset that payout and are looking into an issue which occurred on 7/7 with the payout that was supposed to occur on 7/1. This also appears to have overpayed up to 3x what was actually earned. We are going to rerun both the 7/1 and the 7/15 rev-share updates and so you should expect some additional fluctuations in your account balance.
Sorry again everyone, I know this is important and we are working as hard as possible to resolve it so that everyone is awarded the money which they have rightfully earned. I hope to have this all completed by tomorrow at noon, barring any additional issues which may arise.
Update 7/21 - 10pm:
So issues have arisen. Several users are reporting discrepancies, and while I can't seen anything going wrong with pages rev-share, we are going back through to double check things just in case. We'll probably be going home to sleep sometime soon though, so answers revshare will be delayed again (sorry).
Update 7/22 - 10am:
So turns out that google is under-reporting values for 3 days in the pay period. This is likely what's causing problems for those of you who are reporting values slightly under what you expected. I'm not sure how we're going to deal with this yet as it's not an issue on our side of things. We're holding off on answers rev-share for the time being.
Update 7/22 - 5pm:
We have now added M$ to the accounts of people whom we believe were under-reported by analytics for pages rev-share. We used a formula to calculate an estimate since we don't have any hard numbers for these dates. Next Up: Run answers rev-share for what was supposed to be 7/15 then again find a way to account for the under-reporting from analytics.
Sorry to all the people I haven't had time to reply to everyone directly. I'm working on fixing the problem and don't have time to address each of you individually.
Update 7/22 - 6pm: For those of you who are doubting that we've paid out the correct amounts, here are some numbers which seem to verify that we have:
Total Paid out on 7/01: M$40947.25
Total Paid out on 7/20 and 7/22 (as corrections): M$41731.27
This corresponds closely to the amount of revenue growth Mahalo saw over the same time periods.
Keep in mind that the number you were seeing as pending rev-share on 6/31 are estimates. If they're not exactly the same as the amount you got paid out, that's why.
Update 7/23 - 2pm: I've been trying to run answers rev-share for the past few hours and we're having internal network issues which are causing it to fail. I'll keep trying hopefully we can solve it before the weekend hits.
Update 7/30:
We've taken everyone's concerns to heart and have done a deep audit of our system. We've been able to confirm that the rev-share deposited into Mahalo accounts for the period of June 15-30 is correct. The values are in line with our historic payout amounts, and we've also checked a number of user's top pages to verify by hand that the amount of money reported by Google matched the amount which we actually deposited to those users' accounts. Our developers have also verified that the number of pages that Google reports to us each day were not in an abnormal range for any day within the period. In other words, Google has reported accurate data to us about rev-share and our deep audit reveals that the amounts deposited into Mahalo accounts for the period of June 15-30 are correct.
Checking the spreadsheet provided by one particular user, it appears the pending revenue sharing estimates were within reasonable variation with the exception of those reported for June 30th and July 1st. However, the 1st of July should not have been included because we stopped revenue sharing on that day. As such, once the value for July 1st is no longer considered, the estimated amounts then very closely matched the amounts which we deposited into Mahalo accounts.
In conclusion: Pending rev-share likely misreported values earned for 1 day within the pay period (June 30th), but the values paid in for M$ earned on pages are correct and final. Google has reported accurate data to us about rev-share and our deep audit reveals that the amounts deposited into Mahalo accounts for the period of June 15-30 are correct.
Thanks for your patience while we worked to verify our numbers and for helping to make our Mahalo community the best it can be.
Please contact Mike or Corey with questions.
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M$9 Answers
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M$I have been working on my own explanation but with this new information I do not know how accurate I have been in my calculations.
Hopefully my assistant gets back with my slide rule soon.
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M$
Now I am not terrific at math and I have no idea what that graph above really represents but I can very easily see that a rollback of 71 MDs for a single payment cycle is off ...
Even if I was to be paid 3x the normal amount it would only total 40 MDs for a single revshare payment cycle and that is being generous with my totals. I usually add up to around 12 to 15 MDs in each cycle so the 71 MD retraction is excessive but like usual I will have to go with the flow.
Hey Opher, I'll keep looking, but it seems to me that you earned and received $333.19 for revenue sharing on pages. I verified the values for a number of pages in google analytics as well.
We often see some change between estimated and actual revshare, however this is a large discrepancy, so I will keep looking for any issue. It does appear so far that the value was correctly paid into your account.
@opher's analysis is in line with what I have seen with my own rev share numbers. The "final" figure does not agree to my page detail, and is also less than the rev share for the first half of the month.
Something doesn't make sense- but I'm sure it will be resolved soon.
Jeff: I experienced the same problem as Opher within the past 24hrs.
Thanks for responding @jammons. Here are some things that don't make sense to me.
1) You say I've been paid M$333.19 for page management rev share of June 16-30. However, my current balance shows M$249.81 including about M$20 I had left in the account in the latest payout request, which is over M$100 short of what it should be with just the page revenue you quote (see below why I think your number seems suspiciously low).
2) The total rev share shown on all my pages (member page "pages managed" tab) went up from June 16 to July 1 (showing the previous night's numbers) by M$698.15. The previous 15-day period it was M$433.48. The prior 15 day period was M$478.31. Before that, M$253.40. Before that, M$239.03. Before that, M$170.51. Before that, M$113.41. You can see the pattern showing monthly increases of ~40%, then ~80%, then ~60%, making the M$698.15 a reasonable extrapolation of the pattern. Saying that the rev share dropped instead by 23% from about M$433 to about M$333 is not reasonable.
3) After subtracting BA tips, task payments, and Q&A rev share I received in June from the amount I was able to request cash-out, we are left with about M$950. This is for a full month of page management. Thus, I'd expect that even if my page revenue had not been accelerating (which it was, as shown above) I should have had about M$475 for the half-month of June 16-30. If we assume a 60% increase following the prior pattern, we reach about M$760.
Again, all this is before we address the fact that my Q&A rev share has been stuck since July 1, and in fact had dropped on July 1 by M$39, before which it had also been stuck for several days.
In short, based on all the above analysis, it seems to me that the current balance showing in my account, of about M$250 is short by at least M$200, and more likely by over M$500.
When I say confirmed numbers I'm talking about the rev shares that used to get confirmed twice a month. With the exception of the most recent payout request I always requested essentially my entire balance be paid out (within less than M$10). In the July 8 request I left about M$20 (don't recall the exact number I left off-hand). Thus, to a good degree of accuracy, my payouts show the total of my page rev share, my Q&A rev share, my task tips, and my tips received minus tips given.
As you can see yourself, my payouts were:
October 2009: M$48
November 2009: M$230
December 2009: M$412.50
January 2010: M$466
February 2010: M$352
March 2010: M$364
April 2010: M$734
May 2010: M$730
June 2010: M$1225 requested
Subtracting tasks, Q&A rev share and net tips, the amounts from page management only were (rounded off to nearest M$):
October 2009: M$8
November 2009: M$18
December 2009: M$78
January 2010: M$198
February 2010: M$203
March 2010: M$182
April 2010: M$333
May 2010: M$449
June 2010: M$918
Looking at the page revenue numbers you can see the following:
1. Since I started managing pages, my average month over month increase was more than 100%.
2. Over the last 3 months, when things really started to take off (i.e. I ignore the early months where with those small amounts one could argue that doubling is no big deal, as well as a few months of plateau until my Craigslist pages started kicking a$$), my average month over month increase was 74%.
3. My last month's page management revenue was M$918, so assuming 0% increase in the second half of June compared to the full-month mid-May to Mid-June time frame which was reflected in the June payout, I should have M$459, and not the M$308 I currently show, which subtracting the ~M$20 I left in the balance, is really only M$288. Thus, at the very least, I'm missing M$171.
4. Extrapolating the 74% average increase of the last 3 months, the number should be M$799. Extrapolating the most recent increase I had from May to June, 104%, it would be M$938. Note that these numbers are all for the half-month period, not full-month. In the more modest of these cases, I'm missing M$511, and in the extreme case, M$650 is missing.
Not today Chris. Last weekend there was a matter Mahalo asked me to correct, which I did, and per their request I sent in a modified pay-out request after that. Corey assured me at that time that the modified request would still be paid out July 22 (i.e. today).
I would have been surprised to get a revision today, since even with all the fluctuations, my M$ balance has stayed far above zero.
Nice graphic Budda! I hope you don't mind my catching a ride on your answer with the following.
My page rev share has fluctuated so much that I have a hard time believing any number now. It started around M$680, then went to M$1350, then M$1000, then M$350, and now M$250. Really?
If I go by the screen shot I have of my page revenue numbers from July 1, it should be around M$700 or so. If I go by the average daily amounts from the first part of June (which is probably an underestimate since my page revenues were accelerating throughout the last few weeks of rev sharing), it should be over M$600, and possibly significantly over that.
So, this M$250 can't be anywhere near accurate. The statement that "Page rev-share has run and completed successfully for what should have been the 7/15 payout" is thus very disconcerting to me. It seems that it is low by between M$350 and M$450 compared to where it should be. I hope @jammons gets back with something to address that, whether here or via DQ.
I just saw that my Q&A pending rev share has dropped to M$1.78 from the already far too low M$37.03 it had been stuck at since dropping on July 1 from M$76.51, prior to which it had failed to move much for several days. This drop has not been accompanied by any increase in the far too low M$308.51 my overall balance has dropped to.
This makes it seem that things are going in the wrong direction, and rather than being fixed, they're breaking further.
Yes mine went down more than I suspected, as well. It went down 3 times. If you could please look into my account as well. Thanks :)
Did someone say "trust"?
Cynical me has never 'really' believed our revenue reports because we never see the full picture and have NO idea what calculations/errors/modifications/formula is used during a payrun....mind you I know Google don't help by fluctuating their value as well.....
That being so I've always had a terrible picture in my head of a payrun being done, the vlaue being too big and someone saying "let's just decrease this run by 1/3, no one can confirm the final anyway"..... no really, I know its a stupid thing to picture but why not? We honestly have no idea what formula is run...
But that's just cynical me...the real me is still miffed about pages and still trying to find a different local job and still getting a bit bored with Mahalo's constant, flippant and irregular changes......
So why am I in the negs again...?
@jammons,
Two problems. First, although Corey promised I'd get my July 22 payout on time even though he canceled my initial payout request and had me submit a revised one on July 17, my payout has not been processed along with everyone else's. I've emailed Corey and Mike about this, but am not sure who is the right person to take care of it, and who is around to be able to do something about it, so just letting you know here in case you can help.
Second, your statement about the overall payout amounts being closely in line with each other, I don't doubt your statement (and have never stated or implied you or Mahalo are trying to cheat anyone), but the numbers on my end, as well as for other members, tell a vastly different story. Your numbers match each other within a few percent. My numbers show a discrepancy of about 50%. Since the numbers I posted are based on actual, confirmed numbers, your comment that the 6/31 (I suspect you meant 6/30 there :)) numbers are estimates is not relevant. I'm basing my statements on the actual confirmed rev shares, which led to the following statement (quoting my own comment here):
"After subtracting BA tips, task payments, and Q&A rev share I received in June from the amount I was able to request cash-out, we are left with about M$950. This is for a full month of page management. Thus, I'd expect that even if my page revenue had not been accelerating (which it was, as shown above) I should have had about M$475 for the half-month of June 16-30. If we assume a 60% increase following the prior pattern, we reach about M$760."
Thus, somewhere between M$167 and M$452 is still missing from my balance. This is between 54% and 147% of the amount currently showing. I don't know how one can explain this away by a general statement about the total amount confirmed. Indeed, if the total revenue (and thus traffic) for Mahalo stayed very similar, there is no way to claim that the traffic dipped by more than a third to cause such a large difference in average daily rev share on my pages. Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. Not having access to Mahalo's databases and code there is no way I can tell you what specifically went wrong with your process, but numbers don't lie, and I have detailed meticulous, day by day records that show my current balance is far short of what it should be.
All these issues would make for a great college business and economics class. lol. Just hoping there's no delay in payment for me then, lol.
My balance has also fluctuated a lot, and the current value does not seem right.
For it to be right I would have had to earn a lot less revenue from pages in the second half of June than the first half of June.
There is no reason for that to happen, and my Google Analytics data showed I had significantly more traffic in the second half of the month than the first.
@jammons, I'm not sure what you mean by "we removed values for the latest rev-share payout, so you'll be getting that money back when we finally sort this out" so I'd appreciate your clarifying what this means, and when you expect the money to show up back in our M$ balances.
Next, in response to "I suspect the reason your account balance has gone down is because we fixed an issue from the payout that took place on 7/7 which had overpaid roughly 3x for some answers" - on 7/7 my Q&A confirmed rev share went up by less than M$40. Since my normal average has been about M$40 - M$50 per half month, there could not have been any x3 overpayment on my Q&A rev share. It looks rather well in line with what it should have been, and if anything, might be up to 20% low.
I'm afraid I've still not seen anything to convince me that the current number in my M$ balance is not low by hundreds of M$s. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I'm sure this is an honest mistake or bug somewhere. Having said that, it will not be cool if I (and presumably many other Mahaloians) am (are) shortchanged significantly, even if it is as a result of an error and not malicious intent. I therefore appreciate your efforts to double check things, and hope you find the source of the problem. Under-reporting by Google for 3 days out of the 15 could account for about M$100 - M$150 of the shortage in my balance, but the "correction" downward for the non-existent overpayment of Q&A rev share on 7/7 is probably responsible for another M$100, and there are surely other issues, since as I explained above, by my analysis, I should have a balance of M$700 - M$760, so I'm M$450 - M$510 short as things stand. If you undo the M$100 "correction", and if the Google issue is corrected and sends another M$150 my way, I'd still be at M$500, which would still be about M$200 - M$260 short.
One final comment. I agree with you that Budda is being cool about this, certainly much more so than I have been, but I'd guess this is related to the fact that he's always considered M$ as "play money" that he leaves in Mahalo using it to tip questions, etc. so for him there is no impact on his finances if Mahalo shorts his account by the odd M$200 - M$500. Having said that, it doesn't mean Budda isn't cool :).
anyone else get a revised mahalo payment request email?
nice graph
Math hurt brain.
Irishstephen trust math guys.
Opher: where are you getting these confirmed numbers?
Opher, I suspect the reason your account balance has gone down is because we fixed an issue from the payout that took place on 7/7 which had overpaid roughly 3x for some answers. This is the same reason that Buddawiggi lost M$71.
See updates on my original post for an explanation of what's currently going on.
I'd like to calm any fears my statement (quoted below) may have raised, my July 22 payout was in fact delayed as I suspected due to mis-communication. The matter was addressed promptly and resolved completely. Thanks to Mike Bracco and the rest of the Mahalo team. Have a great weekend.
"...although Corey promised I'd get my July 22 payout on time even though he canceled my initial payout request and had me submit a revised one on July 17, my payout has not been processed along with everyone else's. I've emailed Corey and Mike about this, but am not sure who is the right person to take care of it, and who is around to be able to do something about it, so just letting you know here in case you can help."
Opher, Corey is on vacation, hopefully Mike can sort it out:) Corey said he may pop in throughout his vacation, but I just wanted to let you know in case he doesn't get back to you.
In case anyone is interested in buddawiggi's graph:
It shows how the weights are calculated for a three layer neural network using a technique called "backpropagation". This is a mechanism used to train a network to recognize things.
So the network has 2 inputs and one output and a hidden internal layer. It will take values at the input and fire a result at the output based on the weights (w) at each node. It simulates how neurons work by firing once a value reaches a certain threshhold. Millions of neurons connected together allow us to think and, for example, recognise objects visually.
This specific graph is showing a training mechanism. Where the inputs are defined and so is the output. As a result of this, the weights can be calculated so that the network will fire. Typically you will train a network with many sample inputs so that it can robustly identify even noisy input values.
You can see the two passes illustrated. Once where the inputs to each node are multiplied by the weights and then sigma (the error) is determined and secondly where the weights are worked out based on the difference between the output and the desired result. You can maybe see in the equation that the weights also use the existing weight value so that many trials will gradually stabilize the weight value. This is what makes it resistant to noise, and therefore a successful mechanism for simulating a neural network. "Machine learning" and "neural networks" are good search terms to find out more.
@jammons: Jeff, I'm also not sure that your latest update (btw, thanks again for the updates and communication) about the total payouts supports your point. I think it was Jason or Corey who noted elsewhere that requests were significantly up for yesterday's payout. (Additional time was needed to check all the requests, etc.) So, I would've thought that yesterday's figures would be significantly higher than the July 1 payouts.
Chris,
I'm guessing this has to do with a negative balance - Mahalo probably wants to have you modify (or have modified for you) your recent payment request downward so your resulting balance would become positive (or at least non-negative).
Meanwhile, I just noticed my balance has crawled up ~M$58 (to M$308.51), a small fraction of the way to where it should be. Hopefully by the time this work is done, it'll end up where my analysis shows it should be, between M$700 and M$760 :).
Yowza! A negative 71 Mahalo dollar correction?
Seriously I was at 337 yesterday and I'm now at 266.
@opher, you have done an AMAZING job of analyzing this from the users' perspective! @jammons, I hope that you can - through private communication, or whatever - provide more transparency to Opher (and, thus, to all of us), so that we can properly understand and trust the system.
@jasoncalacanis, @coreymac, @mikebracco, etc: these adjustments have the potential to destroy a LOT of trust which users (esp. power users) have placed in Mahalo. I think it is IMPERATIVE that you demonstrate that the revenue sharing is being properly accounted for.
Even though "cashing out" is ending, it is our understanding that revenue sharing for gift cards/etc is continuing for Q&A's. Therefore, it is necessary that users do not fear that Mahalo may play games to decrease M$ rev share/M-Store payouts. And, even if rev share does NOT continue on Answers, you DO need to maintain trust between Mahalo and its users.
Chriswingate: Correct
Buddawiggi: I also forgot to mention that we removed values for the latest rev-share payout, so you'll be getting that money back when we finally sort this out. Thanks for playing it cool though.
So is this why my balance is in the negs?
Anyway, with this No More Cash for Tips after July 31, you can bet I've been watching the total and planning to cash out what is there late in July. I hope you'll have resolved this by then - if it is going to fluctuate much more, you easily push me into not being able to cash out, if this drops below $150. And then I'll be annoyed. Just so you know--no stomping off, anything like that, but I'd rather get the cash than gadgets. It's been that kind of summer.
personal opinion
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M$
I, too, am concerned about the drop below cashout level. Especially since accurate numbers on July 8 - when I requested a partial cashout based upon the 7/7 number, which did NOT spike, btw - would have prompted me to not make that request. This problem needs to be taken into account when final cashout requests are made. (As well as when/if Mahalo considers how the glitch may put users' balances into negative territory!)
Quote:
Total Paid out on 7/01: M$40947.25
Total Paid out on 7/20 and 7/22 (as corrections): M$41731.27 close quote
Does this mean that some $85000 was paid on those two occasions, and that the general problem was underpayment? So the fact that my total still down nearly 25% will be taken care of when you rerun these numbers again?
Quote:
This also appears to have overpayed up to 3x what was actually earned. We are going to rerun both the 7/1 and the 7/15 rev-share updates and so you should expect some additional fluctuations in your account balance. close quote
I watched my revenue share and tips climb at a predictable pace early in the month, and there was a surprise when the rev share finally reached the earnings total. But it looks like all revenue and earnings accrued this month vanished. I would expect my total to settle about $25 higher than it is. Please check this.
Thanks!
Hi @maggiedwyer,
I'm assuming that the money you're expecting is part of answers rev-share, correct? We have yet to pay out for last half of June, so you should see some M$ bump from that.
-Jeff
Thanks!
What I was expecting was what was visible until a couple of days ago. If it was wrong, it was wrong by only a few dollars. I am still a relatively small player here, so while I don't run a spreadsheet, I am aware that the numbers seem bonkers. Will the rev share from the last half of June be credited before July 31?
Maggie me too, I have not seen any profile activity, despite there obviously being some, from myself or my Mahalo friends under any tab in my Mahalo profile.
I started a bug thread in the Uservoice Mahalo bug forum a few days ago.
http://support.mahalo.com/forums/58755-support/suggestions/935171-profile-alerts-not-working-in-chrome-or-firefox?ref=title
My numbers seem to be stagnant right now. Usually rev share creeps up a little every couple of days. And since all of this discussion started, no answers seem to be voted and awarded. Anyone else seeing this over the last week?
Or the tip added for interesting question by @buddawiggi in the amount of $0.50 and it not being added to the total tip for BA?
I sent an email to @coreymac but have received no reply yet. After seeing this I figure there are bigger fish frying.
It would explain the subsequent fluctuations, just not the double dip tip or the missing interesting tip. Thoughts? Suggestions? A better way of asking for technical support for this specific problem?
I know you're busy. Just asking if I should wait or if the problem isn't still in an inbox somewhere. Thanks!
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M$For it to be right I would have had to earn a lot less revenue from pages in the second half of June than the first half of June.
Mine shows I made about $27 in rev sharing the last half of June and I made over $100 the first half. Something is not right.
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M$
I'm showing that we have now paid you M$75.19 for the second half of June and $60.55 for the first half. (this is for pages only) so it looks like this amounts have been rectified.
I had $298.92 before I received the rev sharing for the second half of June. I now have $337.89. That comes out o $38.97. The first total they gave me was correct, $425 and some cents, but they lower down to $337.89. A lot less than it should be. Your numbers are wrong for the first half of June I do not have the figures because we are not longer able to view that info. How did everything get so messed up? This is all very frustrating to me. I don't even know when to cash out.
But, in case you weren't aware and that it is related, Jeff, my Q/A "pending rev share" (and others', too, from what I've read) has been stuck at the same amount ($23.69) for the past three weeks.
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M$
Oh look, negatives again...
Yeah, that issue with pending rev share is related to these other ones. It should start accumulating this again once the payout is done.
Don't worry if that amount is off because we check before a payout, so the pending amounts are just for your information, but not used in the final calculation.
Thanks again, Jeff, for the quick response.
Yeow, it just crashed, below cash-out level! Hope the coaster ends on a better note than that!
Mine actually did the exact same.. THREE times in the last 3 minutes or so :P
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M$
I'm sure it's hard work. I thank the whole Mahalo team for its continued effort. I continue to hope for the best. Maybe sometime in 2011, I'll have been granted enough for an old wireless iPad. :)
Mahalopinion
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M$
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M$
Yeah, that would be good.
I am glad someone is working on it....because every time I logged on...my rev share was saying surprise., surprise...wow this looks like the stock market lol
will this issue prevent us from being paid today for those who requested payouts earlier this month and for last month?
What is this "Social Cast" and how does one access it? Does it show per-member or per-page data, or just overall Mahalo traffic?
I apologize for posting my comments publicly, but since no one will answer me privately I have no choice. This most recent update makes no sense:
"Update 7/22 - 6pm: For those of you who are doubting that we've paid out the correct amounts, here are some numbers which seem to verify that we have:
Total Paid out on 7/01: M$40947.25
Total Paid out on 7/20 and 7/22 (as corrections): M$41731.27
This corresponds closely to the amount of revenue growth Mahalo saw over the same time periods.
Keep in mind that the number you were seeing as pending rev-share on 6/31 are estimates. If they're not exactly the same as the amount you got paid out, that's why."
The numbers as posted to my account are wrong. I provided a spreadsheet of every day's earnings that prove that. And Google "estimates" each month were off by M$20 or so, not a THOUSAND dollars out of $1,700. That's not within the realm of reasonable expectations.
that stinks!