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 M¢25  Funded By Mahalo ? |  July 10, 2009 06:56 AM

Do you agree with Bill O'Reilly about how the U.S. became powerful?

Bill O'Reilly said this on his talking points this week: "The USA has become the strongest nation on earth largely because of its Judeo-Christian traditions."

Do you agree? It seems to me the U.S. became the strongest nation on Earth based on our innovative business practices, i.e. the assembly line, deregulation of businesses, etc.

Also, if we were following Christian teachings, we certainly wouldn't have made as much money as we did. (see the below quote and all that camel through the needle crap).

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 6:24

So, what do you think? Did Judeo-Christian values have anything to do with American prosperity?
Interesting Question?  Yes (3)   No (0)   

Interesting: krusheasy, aaeeiioouu13, jeffhoard

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July 11, 2009 03:58 AM
Although the USA is in decline and may not be the strongest nation much longer, it is important when answering this question to review history. The vast majority of early settlers in the U.S. were people who were persecuted because of their religious beliefs. Indeed, some of my own distant relatives who came over were Anabaptists. They branched off into the Amish and Mennonite traditions after they arrived. They came over here because they dreamed of practicing their religion without restriction. It was because of this that the founders wanted to insure that people were free to practice their religion without interference by government.

When forming the first government, the founders wanted to make sure that government would neither promote nor inhibit religion. This was because some of them had been persecuted for their religious beliefs in their home countries. Thomas Jefferson clearly didn't want to favor one religion over another and said of the Religious Statute of Freedom "...They meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." Jefferson, Autobiography; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli ratified in 1797 began with, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." Although Christians certainly constituted a majority of the founders, some were Deists and atheists. They were fairly clear in this treaty that although Christianity certainly had an influence on government, the government was not founded on that religion.

Although certainly not founded on Christianity, of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half held seminary or Bible school degrees.

Our first president, George Washington stated, "To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343

The second president, John Adams stated, "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." letter to Thomas Jefferson- June 28, 1813

Finally, Benjamin Franklin said, "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see." to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790

It is without a doubt that many of the founders were Christians. That no doubt influenced them while drafting the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. However, other influences included the Iroquois Nation. Much of our constitution was created from the Iroquois' own constitution.

What can be gleaned from all of this? Christianity had a great influence on our country, but the founders were also clear they were not founding the country on Christianity. To do so would violate their insistence that government not promote a specific religion.
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Article_11.GIF
http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm
http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/

Asker's Rating:
• I thought everyone had some interesting points, but I think it's fitting to award best answer to someone who reached the best balance between the principles which guided the founding of the U.S.

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July 10, 2009 11:06 AM
I strongly disagree with his claim. I think the U.S. became strong DESPITE its influence of judeo-christian "values." Even in recent years, these "values" have interfered with scientific research and technological progression.

I don't remember the U.S. "turning the other cheek" when Pearl Harbor was bombed either...

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gno gno
 
July 10, 2009 01:18 PM
I think you said it. No need for me to repeat the exact same sentiment!

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July 10, 2009 06:14 PM
What do you mean it helped keep order. Do you know what a REVOLUTION is?

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July 10, 2009 02:47 PM
I disagree with your statement that "if we were following Christian teachings, we certainly wouldn't have made as much money as we did". It never says in the Bible that we shouldn't earn money, we just aren't supposed to serve money, meaning have a love of money, hoard and idolize money. We are supposed to serve God and praise Him for giving us the talents, opportunities that we're given to earn the money that we do. How has Christian values interfered with research and technology? Give some specific examples so we can have a good conversation on this topic.

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July 10, 2009 04:41 PM
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21

"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys." Luke 12:33

"And they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need." Acts 2:45

Pretty socialist ideas if you ask me. Perfection in Jesus' mind was the lack of perfection, and everyone living within equal means.

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July 10, 2009 06:28 PM
Yes, Jesus was a socialist. Really, how much worth does a man actually need? Well, he needs a roof over his head, food, and water. All else is merely drain on the soul. The other side of the coin is that the more you give, the more you get back. I spent ten years living as a hoarder, hoarding whatever was given to me and never giving back. It seemed everything came with so much difficulty, all I wanted to do was hold onto those things for yeras and years until they finally wore out completely. Then, I met my current spouse and that person changed my whole life. I now live with a more "easy come easy go" kind of attitude and, guess what? I give everything I have extra, everything I am not using and I get at least twice as much in return. I've never had so much "wealth" coming in and out of my life before and it's all because I give. The old saying that says you get back ten fold what you give is compeltely true, but YOU have to make the first step. That's where faith comes in.

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July 10, 2009 06:36 PM
Jesus was definately a socialist, with his "Robin Hood" take from the rich and give to the poor tactics. I tend to think for the most part everyone is where they should be. The poor deserve to be poor and the rich should be rich.

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July 11, 2009 12:23 AM
A socialist takes from the rich to give to the poor. Jesus asks the rich and the poor to give offering to God and asks the rich to help the poor. It is a different mindset. The big problem with socialism is taking money by force. Helping the poor with your money because you choose to is good. Taking other people's money by force to give to the poor is not.

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July 11, 2009 03:56 AM
It is christian "values" that are used to try to hold back stem-cell research.

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July 11, 2009 12:22 PM
I believe you mean embryonic stem cell research, which has shown no promise and leads to massive tumors. Adult or umbilical cord stem cells on the other hand have led to such things as bone marrow transplants, which are now an everyday thing, and no Biblical Christian is against them. (Fetal stem cells cause tumor in a teenage boy, Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete, Embryonic Stem Cells Found to Acquire Mutations, Success Stories with Adult Stem Cells Coming in Almost Too Fast to Track, Real-World Successes of Adult Stem Cell Treatment)

The last thing we want people to do is intentionally create babies to abort and harvest parts from. That is not loving unborn children. Christian values would have also held back some of the horrifying research done in Nazi concentration camps. If you can't do the scientific research and be seeking the best (loving) the people whose lives are affected by it, it shouldn't be done. Nazi Human Experimentation (wikipedia)

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July 10, 2009 03:05 PM
Absolutely not! Bill O'Reilly is, as usual, wrong again. In fact, America was founded on the basis of freedom, one of the main ones being freedom of religion. Our forefathers made it clear they wanted separation of church and state. We became the greatest nation on Earth because we were bred from the roughest and toughest of the pioneers. Our forefathers came to this new land and etched out an existence from nothing and built this great country through hard work, inginuity, and perseverence. What Bill O'Reilly is saying above is that the only reason we are a great power is because God loves us more than other countries and that is just about the most assanine reasoning I have ever heard. If that is the case, why was the Italian Lira (before they converted to the Euro), even though Italy is home to the Vatican, worth so little? Perhaps God hates Catholics? I think not. Sounds like Mr. O'Reilly is fear-mongering to me. I say we get back to the meat and bones of what this country used to be, a country neither the Conservatives nor Liberals know anything about.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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July 10, 2009 06:10 PM
What fact, exactly, are you refuting and are you sure it's a fact or an opinion? I disagree with Bill O'Reilly on many occasions, but of course that is my opinion, which I have every right to express, just as you expressed your opinion about my answer. Perhaps you should learn to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Stop becoming irritated with the fact that someone disagrees with something you apparently don't. The asker listed what Bill O'Reilly said and then asked the question, "Do you agree?" This means the asker is looking for an opinion, which I gave.

Wish I knew how to report abuse.

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July 10, 2009 03:48 PM
Yes, I do. First, there is work ethic: the Bible says that anyone unwilling to work should not eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

Then there is the golden rule: treat others as you wish to be treated (Matthew 7:12). Businesses that perform the best long term are the ones who take care of their customers, not the ones known for ripping them off. Having good values is what keeps a person from lying about the quality of his product, or cooking books to inflate the value of the company, or making his employees work in unsafe conditions. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will do what is best for him, and that is what ultimately leads to a successful business.

We are currently battling with scam after scam in America because people are now out for money first and don't care whom they hurt. Biblical values are to provide for your own (I Timothy 5:8) and not work with the goal of being rich (Proverbs 23:4). Someone who lives for money will not live for God. That said, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, David, and Solomon were all rich, because God blessed them.

The passage about the eye of the needle that you call "crap" is about a man who comes to Jesus and basically claims that he is good enough to go to heaven. Any born-again Christian can tell you that we are saved by God's mercy, not by anything good we do (Titus 3:5). To prove to the man that he was a sinner and could not be saved by his own works, Jesus tests him by telling him to give all he had to the poor and follow him, and the man refuses, demonstrating his love for money. Jesus goes on to say that while it is hard for a rich man to be saved, nothing is impossible with God (Luke 18:18-27).

A country with no values has rampant crime, crooked police, untrustworthy politicians, and self-serving businesses. The only thing that can keep any order in such a country is personal self defense and a terrifying legal system, which is difficult with crooked police. If a person does not believe in a righteous God Who will judge his works, there is no reason NOT to steal, extort, deceive, etc. You may say that you are a good person who has personal values, but eventually values in a culture corrode when they have no fixed foundation.

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Unhelpful: samid, aaeeiioouu13

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July 10, 2009 04:37 PM
I respect the amount of research you put into this, but there's really no evidence that these teachings were adhered to as America was developing industrially. We can look into the past and see specifically the turning points of American history. The Industrial Revolution, World War I, Ford Motor Company, etc.

I guess I just don't see the relevance between Bible verses which may or may not have been followed (you have to admit, many people quote these verses...not everyone adheres to them) and American progress.

I like the discussion, though!

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July 10, 2009 06:22 PM
You did a great job answering this question, but I must say there is no evidence that without religion evil would run rampant. The Bible is no doubt a great guide to life, but there is no way of knowing that, without the Bible, the world would be a "hell on Earth." I have more faith in my fellow man than that. I, myself, have a very strong conscience, which is what prevents me from doing harm to others. I have seen more good people who are not Christian than who are Christian, sadly, regardless of the existence of and context of the Bible.

The simple answer is love. If you have love in your heart, you will automatically follow the Ten Commandments, because that is what they are based in. Love is respect. If you love your fellow man, you respect your fellow man. And, if you respect your fellow man, you would never do anything to hurt your fellow man, such as murder, cheat, or steal. I believe it's rather insane how complicated we make all of this, when really the answer is love.

As for money and prosperity being related to our Christian values, how can anyone relate the root of all evil to our Lord? I'll never understand it. What I have learned is that the Lord does provide no matter the circumstances and that we are supposed to have enough faith in Him to not fear the future. Worry breeds fear and fear breeds violence. "Fear not my child." Unfortunately, too many people skipped over that part.

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July 11, 2009 12:34 AM
@samid, you are saying that if you love as you should, you will automatically follow the ten commandments, which means that you will be following the Judeo-Christian traditions. I think we can agree that any nation founded on people who love their neighbors as much as they love themselves (in other words, always seeking the best for their neighbor like they do for themselves) would be a strong one.

Just a clarification, the Bible does not call "money" the root of all evil. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil (I Timothy 6:10). You can't serve God and money. You will either love God or love money (Matthew 6:24). To love money is to not love God, which is the root of all kinds of evil. Loving money is warned against in many places in the Bible (Timothy 3:2, Hebrews 13:5), but we are never warned against having money, and are instead told that a good man leaves an inheritance to his grandchildren (Proverbs 13:22).

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July 10, 2009 05:11 PM
I absolutely do not agree with Bill O'Reilly, who is catering to his fundamentalist base. Some of the things that have contributed to this country's strengths are:

1. The American Dream. This is a double edged sword, getting people to want to work and want to improve their lot, which has led to powerful businesses. On the other hand, it has made some people selfish and less willing to have programs that would help others.

2. As you mentioned, our innovative business practices certainly helped.

3. Our ethically strong constitution. This wonderful document has allowed us to do away with many of the problems created by Christianity. After all, it was Christianity that justified slavery and segregation.

I'm currently reading a book called The God Virus, which clearly shows how religions act like viruses on society, or even parasites. They even alter the perceptions of their adherents, and you can see this clearly in people like O'Reilly. Most of what he does is an attempt by that particular version of the Christian "virus" to propagate itself. Religion isn't about love and tolerance, it's about ensuring its own survival.

The best solution for not falling for this bull is proper education, including education in science. Not only is there no empirical evidence for O'Reilly's religion, there's no empirical evidence for his claim that Christianity has truly benefited the USA, either.
Source(s):
http://www.amazon.com/God-Virus-religion-infects-culture/dp/0970950519/


Tags: dangerous, oreilly, christianity

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July 10, 2009 06:17 PM
while I agree it was the industrial revolution that made this country a major power, it is the "Protestant Work Ethic" that made the Industrial Revolution possible.
I guess Nobody is wrong on this one!
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic


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July 10, 2009 06:28 PM
Its a good question but it should be upon Bill to provide evidence that christianity is the reason we're wealthy and powerful. In the video he mentions Obama didnt attend the prayer breakfast and there's not gonna be an Air Force flyover. SO. I've never understood tradition for tradition's sake. Should Obama automatically do these things JUST BECAUSE the presidents before him did.

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July 10, 2009 07:46 PM
At about 4:30 into this James Burke clip, it is argued the American actually benefited more from Darwinian Theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsevQjebJ1E

I think Christianity has influenced a lot of the moral standards in America and many laws as well, but I find it hard to believe that religion had anything to do with America becoming a super-power. Especially when it's Bill O'Reilly making the argument.

I would trust a turd sandwich before I trust anything that comes from Bill-O
Source(s):
http://www.mahalo.com/the-day-the-universe-changed-episode-8


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July 11, 2009 01:25 AM
His answer is absolutely ridiculous. The United States became powerful as a result of the Civil War and World War II. And this would become apparent to anyone who studies the manufacturing and technological base of the United States before and after the Civil War and World War II.
Question for Bill.
1) Was it religion that allowed Spain to become the most powerful nation in the 1500's?
2) Was it religion that allowed France to become the most powerful nation in the 1600's?
3) Was it religion that allowed Britain to become the most powerful nation in the 1700's?

For more about the effects of the Civil War on the United States, read Shelby Foote's "The Civil War."

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