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November 13, 2009 02:04 AM
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I personally am always conservative (skeptical) when it comes to money.
When I think about bringing on a partner into my page management scheme I think "okay is it worth it to have this person on board especially if I am going to have to allow them primary control of my enterprise?".
(quoting @lon above "Yes, a vertical manager can take away a page manager's pages")
Will it be worth giving a vertical manager 20% of my page earnings if they cannot add at least 21% to the total equation? If not then the addition of the VM would be a liability to the overall project.
I know pages are all works in progress and the initial investment of 20% of my earnings in a vertical manager might take a bit of time to see a return on investment but I am weary of what I see as hiring a person to manage me and my ventures (odd viewpoint I know but that is how I see this) when the possibility of keeping them on as a vertical manager could in the long run be nothing but a drain on the earnings in my pocket and the project in general.
What if after a couple of months the page is earning the same or less than it was before the addition of a vertical manager do I reserve the right at all to request the change in manager? I would not want to be paying someone for work that was not working.
However after all of this I still remain positive (but skeptical) about this addition to the Mahalo Experience.
Tags: verticalmanager
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It gives us even more opportunities to earn, no matter whether we are page managers or vertical managers.
Vertical managers will help page managers, and be free to bring more to the table in terms of building out the verticals. Previously it just was not possible to do on an individual level.
More than one vertical manager can work together to promote as well.
This is so exciting and I can't wait to see it all unfold!
P.S... for those of you who have wanted pages that someone else was managing... keep an eye out for all those pages that will be freed up by those moving from PM to VM.
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my 2 cents
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What I want to ask is do the vertical managers have the right to take away a page from a page manager ?
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To all the people worrying right now about how things are going to go down, my personal advice is to remember that Mahalo's always been pretty darn good to us looking after our interests and keeping things very fair. So I'm not sweating too much knowing that if bugs do happen or if errors are made they will get corrected.
I'll be honest, I have high hopes to be a VM, seeing as editing and proofreading are my biggest fortes (don't judge my quick typing here btw, not fair!). But even if I stay as a page manager, I can see that this is going to be handy. We're basically going to have a built-in cheering section, mentor, and advocate working for us. No matter how it shakes out for me, I'm all sunshine and daisies about these upcoming changes. (I hope I'm right!)
Here's a question for the masses though:
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Do you think that having a successful VM will allow you to manage more pages than you otherwise would have?
Or do you think it won't lighten your workload enough to warrant additional pages?
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My point? This is a brilliant system, time-tested and of mutual benefit to all. If my VM takes a cut, my VM will earn that cut back and then some (who knows - I don't want to "blue sky"), but the VM, purely by logic, should earn back the PM's "lost" revenue and boost it by quite a bit more than the percentage taken.
That's the way the rest of the media industry works...why not us?
It's like my birthday - who will my VM be????
Tags: percentage, revenue, vm, pm
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Also, how would I get to know who my VM is ?
Will there be another box right under the "page managed by"... section mentioning the VM ?
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Perhaps a better model would be to give existing pages to VMs only if they are not performing well. For those that are performing well, let the PMs keep them as is. Alternatively, if the VM is supposed to make things much better in terms of quality and income, let the VM take 25% or even 33% of any *increment* in that page's income. That will be a fair setup, where the VM actually earns their pay from the page.
For new pages the VM barn-raises, or for ones s/he researches, by all means, the VM should get a sizable fraction of the entire page income. However, do you really thing this should also hold for existing, well performing pages?
Just my M$0.02.
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I think my experience with SEO will help me to help those here who are struggling with it (I am no where as good as Smartweb but I succeed). When people ask me how to do something I can tell them how to tweak the article (as I have done on other sites) BUT as a V-manager here I can go make the tweaks myself and then they see what changed.
I see this v-manger stuff a win-win for all involved.
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I'd really like to have a positive outlook on this whole VM issue, but I'm finding that to be a very difficult thing to do. I really hope I'm wrong and that this will turn out to be a benefit for everyone involved.
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One other concern that I have right now: my initial reaction is that I would love to be a VM. However, it is likely that I would not be selected because I do not yet have the Mahalo experience AND have not spent the necessary hrs/day that it is obviously going to take to do it properly. I expect both of those to resolve in the near future.
However, I am concerned that all of the most profitable VM real estate will be assigned quickly, and that the less profitable outlands are going to be all that are left down the road.
--mm
P.S. Also, I am guessing that you (Mahalo) are going to have some objective way(s) of reviewing the performance of individual VM's. Might that not mean that the discussions about whether the VM is improving a page's performance might be resolved by breaking down that data to the individual page level?
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Overall like many users I am skeptical of this new system. I don't like the idea of page managers losing 20% of page income to have a VM look over it and give tips on how to make it better. I understand Mahalo wants to increase quality and quantity of pages on Mahalo, and this new system may help, but I think page managers will be taking a pay cut in the process.
I question the necessity of VM's. Jason made the argument that we need more than one user contributing to a page. Currently we do have more than one user contributing to each page in the QC process where the QC reviews, edits, sets up the page, categorizes and sets up redirects for each new page. I think this is pretty good in terms of assuring the quality of new pages. It is then the page manager's responsibility to keep it updated.
Another point Jason made is that if this doesn't work out well, we can just switch back. I have a feeling this could be very difficult. Current top page managers will be giving up most of their pages in order to become a VM. These pages will then be claimed by other users. After all this has happened, how can you switch back to how it was?
I also question if VM's will be able to devote enough of their time and effort to each page to make it worth the page managers giving up 20%. With 1000's of pages to look over. Will they be able to increase revenue on each page by more than 20%?
I know the goal is to increase quality of pages, but with a system where VM's will be choosing the highest earning pages which don't need help, the pages with low earnings that do need help will be abandoned by the VM's.
Now I don't mean to be all negative. There are positives to this system too, but each side needs to be considered. Some of the positives would be a more organized system, faster production of good pages, increased quality of current pages, and additional promotion by the VM's. This is good for Mahalo as a whole, I just wish page managers did not have to lose 20% in order for it to happen.
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Answered Question
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Frequently asked questions about Vertical Management ANSWERED! New system for managing pages coming next week!
I've been contacted by a number of page managers in the last few days with a lot of concerns about the new Vertical Management system. We're working on internal documents about Vertical Management now that will explain everything, but just in brief:
Next week, Mahalo will begin slowly rolling out a system allowing users to "supervise" the managed pages of other users. This will involve advising users when pages require updates, putting new pages that are needed into the system, organizing barnraisings, setting standards for categories, helping managers with setting up related page sections, ads and redirects, answering questions and helping newer users, helping managers to promote their pages across the web, and so forth.
In exchange for this diligent work, vertical managers will receive 20% of the revenue earned by pages they oversee, in Mahalo Dollars. Page managers will receive 40% of the revenue (also in Mahalo Dollars).
Here are some of the major questions and concerns I've heard from the community, with some brief responses.
- How do I become a vertical manager? Is there an application process?
Vertical managers, to begin with, will be accepted by invitation only. You can ask to be invited by contacting me, @annek or @camilla. But membership in the group will be rather elite, and based on having an overall excellent track record of work on Mahalo, as well as a willingness to spend time in the site almost every day and a positive, constructive, collaborative attitude.
- Are verticals assigned to vertical managers or do we get to choose?
You will never be assigned a vertical. It is up to you which section you work in. However, because vertical managers are expected to oversee at least 750 pages at a time, and there are many verticals that don't have a lot of pages currently, some verticals will be "closed off" if enough managers sign up for them. Verticals will be distributed on a first-come, first-served basis.
- Do I have to work in just one vertical?
No, vertical managers can spread their efforts over up to 3 different verticals. However, when they first are accepted to the program, they will have to chose one vertical in which to focus their efforts.
- How do vertical managers get pages to work on?
When they are first admitted to the program, vertical managers will select one top-level category on which to focus. Current top level categories are:
Arts and Design
Beauty and Style
Books and Authors
Business
Cars
Consumer Electronics
Education
Entertainment
Environment
Fitness
Food and Drink
Health
History
Hobbies
Home and Garden
Jobs
Legal
Love and Relationships
Money
Music
News
Parenting
Pets
Science/Mathematics
Services
Shopping
Social Science
Society and Culture (includes Holidays)
Sports
Technology
Travel
Video Games
After selecting a primary category, the new vertical manager will be assigned 1000 pages from that category to manage, at random. They can then pick which of these pages they wish to abandon and which they wish to keep, as well as adding other pages from their verticals.
- What's the most pages someone can vertically manage?
For now, 3000, though we may adjust that over time.
- If I'm a page manager and my page doesn't have a vertical manager, do I still get 40% of the revenue?
No, you will receive the traditional 50% of the revenue (in Mahalo Dollars). You only receive 40% if you are sharing the profits and collaborating with a Vertical Manager.
- If I become a vertical manager, do I lose all my managed pages?
Vertical managers will cease to work regularly as page managers. You will be asked to give up the majority of your managed pages and focus instead of supervising and collaborating on the work of other page managers.
However, you will be able to keep some of the pages you already manage as a vertical manager. We're still deciding the exact amount. And you will not automatically have all your pages taken away when you make the transition.
- What happens if a page manager and a vertical manager disagree on something?
Vertical managers are in charge of organizing verticals and making big-picture decisionsbut they are not the "bosses" of page managers. If the two managers cannot agree about how something should appear on a page, the vertical manager should check with a staff member for guidance.
- If I'm a page manager, will vertical managers start coming in and telling me what to do?
Vertical managers may come to your page and make suggestions about ways to improve your pages. This should always be done in the spirit of collaboration. Rather than thinking of your vertical manager as your "boss" who is telling you what to do, think fo them as your editor, who is providing an extra perspective on your work and helping you to produce the best-possible page that you can.
If you feel a vertical manager is making poor suggestions or asking you to do things to your page that are inappropriate, let me or another Mahalo staff member know.
- How much will vertical managers make?
Vertical managers earn 20% of the revenue earned by all their overseen pages, in Mahalo Dollars. When they are first assigned a vertical, they will be given 1000 pages to oversee. On average, this works out to anywhere between M$2 and M$10 per day. This revenue will go up significantly once vertical managers take on more pages of their own choosing, help to get more pages built by organizing barnraisings and assigning more page managers to their verticals, and start the work of promoting their pages and categories.
- Can vertical managers claim How To pages? What about coupon pages?
Yes. There will not be a Coupon Vertical Manager or a How To Vertical Manager. These pages can be claimed by vertical managers so long as they relate to the vertical in question. For example, Red Lobster Coupons could be overseen by the Food and Drink Vertical Manager, while How to Carve a Pumpkin could be overseen by the Society and Culture Vertical Manager (who would work on holiday pages).
- If a page is assigned to multiple different categories, will it have multiple vertical managers?
No, a page will only ever have 1 vertical manager. If a page appears in two or more categories, it is open to ANYONE who is a vertical manager in any of those categories. And once it has a single vertical manager, no other VM's can claim it.
- Where can I find out more about vertical management?
I'm writing the page on it RIGHT NOW. It's going to be called Mahalo Vertical Management Guide. Check back in a day or two and it will be full of information!
Next week, Mahalo will begin slowly rolling out a system allowing users to "supervise" the managed pages of other users. This will involve advising users when pages require updates, putting new pages that are needed into the system, organizing barnraisings, setting standards for categories, helping managers with setting up related page sections, ads and redirects, answering questions and helping newer users, helping managers to promote their pages across the web, and so forth.
In exchange for this diligent work, vertical managers will receive 20% of the revenue earned by pages they oversee, in Mahalo Dollars. Page managers will receive 40% of the revenue (also in Mahalo Dollars).
Here are some of the major questions and concerns I've heard from the community, with some brief responses.
- How do I become a vertical manager? Is there an application process?
Vertical managers, to begin with, will be accepted by invitation only. You can ask to be invited by contacting me, @annek or @camilla. But membership in the group will be rather elite, and based on having an overall excellent track record of work on Mahalo, as well as a willingness to spend time in the site almost every day and a positive, constructive, collaborative attitude.
- Are verticals assigned to vertical managers or do we get to choose?
You will never be assigned a vertical. It is up to you which section you work in. However, because vertical managers are expected to oversee at least 750 pages at a time, and there are many verticals that don't have a lot of pages currently, some verticals will be "closed off" if enough managers sign up for them. Verticals will be distributed on a first-come, first-served basis.
- Do I have to work in just one vertical?
No, vertical managers can spread their efforts over up to 3 different verticals. However, when they first are accepted to the program, they will have to chose one vertical in which to focus their efforts.
- How do vertical managers get pages to work on?
When they are first admitted to the program, vertical managers will select one top-level category on which to focus. Current top level categories are:
Arts and Design
Beauty and Style
Books and Authors
Business
Cars
Consumer Electronics
Education
Entertainment
Environment
Fitness
Food and Drink
Health
History
Hobbies
Home and Garden
Jobs
Legal
Love and Relationships
Money
Music
News
Parenting
Pets
Science/Mathematics
Services
Shopping
Social Science
Society and Culture (includes Holidays)
Sports
Technology
Travel
Video Games
After selecting a primary category, the new vertical manager will be assigned 1000 pages from that category to manage, at random. They can then pick which of these pages they wish to abandon and which they wish to keep, as well as adding other pages from their verticals.
- What's the most pages someone can vertically manage?
For now, 3000, though we may adjust that over time.
- If I'm a page manager and my page doesn't have a vertical manager, do I still get 40% of the revenue?
No, you will receive the traditional 50% of the revenue (in Mahalo Dollars). You only receive 40% if you are sharing the profits and collaborating with a Vertical Manager.
- If I become a vertical manager, do I lose all my managed pages?
Vertical managers will cease to work regularly as page managers. You will be asked to give up the majority of your managed pages and focus instead of supervising and collaborating on the work of other page managers.
However, you will be able to keep some of the pages you already manage as a vertical manager. We're still deciding the exact amount. And you will not automatically have all your pages taken away when you make the transition.
- What happens if a page manager and a vertical manager disagree on something?
Vertical managers are in charge of organizing verticals and making big-picture decisionsbut they are not the "bosses" of page managers. If the two managers cannot agree about how something should appear on a page, the vertical manager should check with a staff member for guidance.
- If I'm a page manager, will vertical managers start coming in and telling me what to do?
Vertical managers may come to your page and make suggestions about ways to improve your pages. This should always be done in the spirit of collaboration. Rather than thinking of your vertical manager as your "boss" who is telling you what to do, think fo them as your editor, who is providing an extra perspective on your work and helping you to produce the best-possible page that you can.
If you feel a vertical manager is making poor suggestions or asking you to do things to your page that are inappropriate, let me or another Mahalo staff member know.
- How much will vertical managers make?
Vertical managers earn 20% of the revenue earned by all their overseen pages, in Mahalo Dollars. When they are first assigned a vertical, they will be given 1000 pages to oversee. On average, this works out to anywhere between M$2 and M$10 per day. This revenue will go up significantly once vertical managers take on more pages of their own choosing, help to get more pages built by organizing barnraisings and assigning more page managers to their verticals, and start the work of promoting their pages and categories.
- Can vertical managers claim How To pages? What about coupon pages?
Yes. There will not be a Coupon Vertical Manager or a How To Vertical Manager. These pages can be claimed by vertical managers so long as they relate to the vertical in question. For example, Red Lobster Coupons could be overseen by the Food and Drink Vertical Manager, while How to Carve a Pumpkin could be overseen by the Society and Culture Vertical Manager (who would work on holiday pages).
- If a page is assigned to multiple different categories, will it have multiple vertical managers?
No, a page will only ever have 1 vertical manager. If a page appears in two or more categories, it is open to ANYONE who is a vertical manager in any of those categories. And once it has a single vertical manager, no other VM's can claim it.
- Where can I find out more about vertical management?
I'm writing the page on it RIGHT NOW. It's going to be called Mahalo Vertical Management Guide. Check back in a day or two and it will be full of information!
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| November 13, 2009 02:20 PM |
When I think about bringing on a partner into my page management scheme I think "okay is it worth it to have this person on board especially if I am going to have to allow them primary control of my enterprise?".
(quoting @lon above "Yes, a vertical manager can take away a page manager's pages")
Will it be worth giving a vertical manager 20% of my page earnings if they cannot add at least 21% to the total equation? If not then the addition of the VM would be a liability to the overall project.
I know pages are all works in progress and the initial investment of 20% of my earnings in a vertical manager might take a bit of time to see a return on investment but I am weary of what I see as hiring a person to manage me and my ventures (odd viewpoint I know but that is how I see this) when the possibility of keeping them on as a vertical manager could in the long run be nothing but a drain on the earnings in my pocket and the project in general.
What if after a couple of months the page is earning the same or less than it was before the addition of a vertical manager do I reserve the right at all to request the change in manager? I would not want to be paying someone for work that was not working.
However after all of this I still remain positive (but skeptical) about this addition to the Mahalo Experience.
Tags: verticalmanager
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Helpful: lidyax, philipy, cherise
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Other Answers (19)
November 13, 2009 02:13 AM
I got a question that came up after reading your DA to me: Say us page managers have various pages scattered across categories For this example let's say Shopping (for gift card pgs) and Video Games. That means once assigned I'd be working under a VM from both those "departments", correct?
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November 13, 2009 02:15 AM
Vertical managers are assigned to PAGES, not users, and there is only one vertical manager per page. If you have a page that's under both "Shopping" and "Video Games," it will be vertically managed by someone who has a right to manage pages in one of those two verticals.
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November 13, 2009 02:15 AM
Per yesterday's tutorial, page managers could ending up 'teaming with' a number of vertical managers.
This could encourage you to focus on pages that are spread across fewer verticals, especially if you start to get better page traffic by teaming with a vertical manager for page promotion.
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This could encourage you to focus on pages that are spread across fewer verticals, especially if you start to get better page traffic by teaming with a vertical manager for page promotion.
November 13, 2009 02:21 AM
So my gift card pages would be under 1 VM, and video games under another right?
...and page managers aren't loosing their pages during the crossover, unless they're hired as VMs right?
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...and page managers aren't loosing their pages during the crossover, unless they're hired as VMs right?
November 13, 2009 02:27 AM
right, chris.
but since vertical managers can conceivably have a secondary vertical, you could end up with the same actual manager for both... if that particular VM was a manager for shopping and for video games. you just would never have a manager that was not approved for your particular verticals.
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but since vertical managers can conceivably have a secondary vertical, you could end up with the same actual manager for both... if that particular VM was a manager for shopping and for video games. you just would never have a manager that was not approved for your particular verticals.
November 13, 2009 02:28 AM
Ok, awesome, just one the things I wanted to get cleared up in my head. :)
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November 13, 2009 02:25 AM
I am soooo excited about this! It gives us even more opportunities to earn, no matter whether we are page managers or vertical managers.
Vertical managers will help page managers, and be free to bring more to the table in terms of building out the verticals. Previously it just was not possible to do on an individual level.
More than one vertical manager can work together to promote as well.
This is so exciting and I can't wait to see it all unfold!
P.S... for those of you who have wanted pages that someone else was managing... keep an eye out for all those pages that will be freed up by those moving from PM to VM.
Source(s):
my 2 cents
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November 13, 2009 02:39 AM
I will see how this will be implemented. On the other hand, it'll be nice to have more people to help us edit or manage the page. But I hope all the vertical managers are helpful and encouraging. What I want to ask is do the vertical managers have the right to take away a page from a page manager ?
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November 13, 2009 04:32 AM
Yes, a vertical manager can take away a page manager's pages, but it's really not in their best interest to do so unless they have a good cause. Remember, they can not earn any increase in revenue from kicking a page manager off a page.
They will hold the same standards as members of Mahalo staff...If a page manager has not updated the page in several weeks, if they are unresponsible to requests to work on the page or uncooperative, then the page can be taken away. Page managers can, of course, let the staff know if there is an ongoing issue or disagreement with a vertical manager, but I don't anticipate this being a problem...In order to become a vertical manager in the first place, a Mahalo user would have to have proven themselves trusthworthy, responsible and cooperative over the course of several months.
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They will hold the same standards as members of Mahalo staff...If a page manager has not updated the page in several weeks, if they are unresponsible to requests to work on the page or uncooperative, then the page can be taken away. Page managers can, of course, let the staff know if there is an ongoing issue or disagreement with a vertical manager, but I don't anticipate this being a problem...In order to become a vertical manager in the first place, a Mahalo user would have to have proven themselves trusthworthy, responsible and cooperative over the course of several months.
November 13, 2009 02:52 PM
I would feel safer if the VMs only have the ability to recommend to the Mahalo staff of removing the pages from the page managers. The right to remove a page should be on the Mahalo staffs'. Even now the QCers are divided on many issues. Sometimes when I add inlink, they are removed by the QCers, sometimes there are not enough inlink.
I don't have a problem if the VMs removing a page that is not the page manger's creation or the page manager does nothing to it. But what about how-to pages? A lot of these pages don't really need constant update. We really work hard on these and the pages have already gone through vigorous QCing before being approved. I honestly don’t want other people aside from the staffs to have this power over my hardworked pages. As nice as these people are, they are still not Mahalo staff. It is impossible to hold them to be as accountable as the staffs.
Who can say if it’s someone’s best interest to kick someone off a page? I’ve been inside office politic enough to know that even with the nicest people we might have serious disagreements that can escalate terribly. And I’ve seen it happen within Mahalo itself.
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I don't have a problem if the VMs removing a page that is not the page manger's creation or the page manager does nothing to it. But what about how-to pages? A lot of these pages don't really need constant update. We really work hard on these and the pages have already gone through vigorous QCing before being approved. I honestly don’t want other people aside from the staffs to have this power over my hardworked pages. As nice as these people are, they are still not Mahalo staff. It is impossible to hold them to be as accountable as the staffs.
Who can say if it’s someone’s best interest to kick someone off a page? I’ve been inside office politic enough to know that even with the nicest people we might have serious disagreements that can escalate terribly. And I’ve seen it happen within Mahalo itself.
November 13, 2009 03:18 AM
I am excited about this transition for Mahalo. The idea of a vertical manager explaining page promotion is worth the whole idea coming to fruition. I am no good at promoting the pages I manage now and need to know how to do it better. The more page views we get the more money we get so with a VM helping make the pages the best one for that subject makes me excited. I am loving the concept of Vertical Managers. Can't wait to see who I get to work with that I haven't been able to yet.
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November 13, 2009 05:06 AM
I think this a very exciting change and opportunity for both the new VM team AND for page managers. Really, I think this really is going to boost Mahalo pages to the next level of quality and success. To all the people worrying right now about how things are going to go down, my personal advice is to remember that Mahalo's always been pretty darn good to us looking after our interests and keeping things very fair. So I'm not sweating too much knowing that if bugs do happen or if errors are made they will get corrected.
I'll be honest, I have high hopes to be a VM, seeing as editing and proofreading are my biggest fortes (don't judge my quick typing here btw, not fair!). But even if I stay as a page manager, I can see that this is going to be handy. We're basically going to have a built-in cheering section, mentor, and advocate working for us. No matter how it shakes out for me, I'm all sunshine and daisies about these upcoming changes. (I hope I'm right!)
Here's a question for the masses though:
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Do you think that having a successful VM will allow you to manage more pages than you otherwise would have?
Or do you think it won't lighten your workload enough to warrant additional pages?
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Helpful: lon, lidyax, unwirklich, smartweb, librarian, philipy, katey
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November 13, 2009 05:17 AM
Great points, @gno! We're looking forward to having you on board.
One note: There are TWO benefits as a page manager to having a good VM. You not only have some of the pressure of constantly keeping a page up to date taken off your shoulders, thus allowing you to take on more pages than you otherwise might be able to...you also have a partner in promoting your page!
Social media and SEO-wise, this is huge. 2 people submitting links to social bookmarking sites, posting links to their feeds and notifying their favorite communities and bloggers is DEFINITELY better than 1. Not to mention how much easier and faster it will make adding things like redirects and related pages.
We're hoping this kind of collaboration is going to give page managers a real shot in the arm, and make everyone on Mahalo more effective. In fact, we're counting on it.
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One note: There are TWO benefits as a page manager to having a good VM. You not only have some of the pressure of constantly keeping a page up to date taken off your shoulders, thus allowing you to take on more pages than you otherwise might be able to...you also have a partner in promoting your page!
Social media and SEO-wise, this is huge. 2 people submitting links to social bookmarking sites, posting links to their feeds and notifying their favorite communities and bloggers is DEFINITELY better than 1. Not to mention how much easier and faster it will make adding things like redirects and related pages.
We're hoping this kind of collaboration is going to give page managers a real shot in the arm, and make everyone on Mahalo more effective. In fact, we're counting on it.
November 13, 2009 05:42 PM
Yes, one great strentgh of Mahalo is that it learns pretty quickly by trial and error. Sometimes things are tried out that turn out not to be so great - the infamous plumber questions for example! - but Mahalo learns pdq not to keep doing that. And the things that are tried and do work well stay and refined further.
There'll probably be some hitches along the way, but that's all part of the process.
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There'll probably be some hitches along the way, but that's all part of the process.
November 13, 2009 06:03 PM
@gno... "Do you think that having a successful VM will allow you to manage more pages than you otherwise would have? Or do you think it won't lighten your workload enough to warrant additional pages?"
I think it could *increase* my workload, because of my having to spend time on having discussions with the VM, and on making frequent small changes that aren't necessarily worthwhile.
Personally I don't fancy being "managed", I'd be more interested in "subcontracting" aspects of page management that don't appeal to me so much. Routine marketing efforts would be one of those.
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I think it could *increase* my workload, because of my having to spend time on having discussions with the VM, and on making frequent small changes that aren't necessarily worthwhile.
Personally I don't fancy being "managed", I'd be more interested in "subcontracting" aspects of page management that don't appeal to me so much. Routine marketing efforts would be one of those.
November 13, 2009 06:58 AM
Curious as to how this will work if/when VM's choose to do barnraisings to get more writers for their vertical. Say Joe Blow is the VM for music. He researches all the keywords, what's coming up, trends, etc, then searches for each title in Mahalo (and Google) to be sure not to put in duplicate terms. He then spends the time to post every single barnraising item. Then someone else can QC it? Would it be fair to ask the QC team not to QC something posted in specific barnraisings, unless they are in house?
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November 13, 2009 07:06 AM
Think of the QC process as just another set of eyes looking at the page. They don't get the manage the page once the QC is over. In fact, we'll definitely be looking into ways to automatically assign pages to a vertical manager if it is part of a barnraising that they have organized, to guarantee they will have access to all the terms that they worked so hard researching.
Not sure what the other objection would be to having a QC'er take a look at a page before handing it back to a page manager/vertical manager team. Surely that's just one more roadblock against stop errors!
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Not sure what the other objection would be to having a QC'er take a look at a page before handing it back to a page manager/vertical manager team. Surely that's just one more roadblock against stop errors!
November 13, 2009 07:08 AM
Sounds interesting. Can't wait to see how this is all going to work. Thanks Lon!
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November 13, 2009 02:23 PM
I would think a VM could send a note to the QC team about the specific concerns they have about the pages in their vertical to help ensure consistency...but there are so many pages to QC, I'm not sure a VM could do all the QC-ing in their vertical...so another set of hands and eyes is a good thing.
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November 13, 2009 09:51 AM
Has anyone ever had an agent? Or a manager? An agent typically takes 10% and a manager 15% of the artist's revenue. Is this fair? Hell yeah! Because if the artist had to handle all the stuff the agent and/or manager takes on, said artist would assuredly lose said 10-15% of revenue in a hurry. My point? This is a brilliant system, time-tested and of mutual benefit to all. If my VM takes a cut, my VM will earn that cut back and then some (who knows - I don't want to "blue sky"), but the VM, purely by logic, should earn back the PM's "lost" revenue and boost it by quite a bit more than the percentage taken.
That's the way the rest of the media industry works...why not us?
It's like my birthday - who will my VM be????
Tags: percentage, revenue, vm, pm
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November 13, 2009 01:46 PM
Just want to point out here that the VM takes a 25% cut of the PM's revenue. That's a large chunk. Think about what this means where your pages are doing well and the VM has no work to do on them, but still takes away 1/4 of your earnings. Does that still sound reasonable to you?
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November 13, 2009 01:52 PM
@opher
i think you are misunderstanding what the earnings are.
right now it is 50% mahalo, 50% page manager
it is going to be 40% mahalo, 40% page manager and 20% vertical manager
the page manager gives up 10% of earnings for the help the vertical manager gives
and @lon has said if a page has no vertical manager yet the page manager will continue to get the full 50%
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i think you are misunderstanding what the earnings are.
right now it is 50% mahalo, 50% page manager
it is going to be 40% mahalo, 40% page manager and 20% vertical manager
the page manager gives up 10% of earnings for the help the vertical manager gives
and @lon has said if a page has no vertical manager yet the page manager will continue to get the full 50%
November 13, 2009 01:59 PM
@smartweb If we look at our earnings, the 50% we now get is 100% of our earnings. Giving up one 5th of that total (dropping from 50% to 40%) is a 20% drop in earnings.
I just do not want to have page managers think that they are giving up 10% of their earnings.. we are giving the VMs 20% of *our* earnings.
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I just do not want to have page managers think that they are giving up 10% of their earnings.. we are giving the VMs 20% of *our* earnings.
November 13, 2009 03:10 PM
correct. @ buddawiggi... i was referring to 10% of total page revenue
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November 13, 2009 03:48 PM
First, I think it's a a fair concession that Mahalo is matching the reduction in revenue on their end as well. That alone should signal, I think, that Mahalo has every confidence that the addition of a Vertical Mgr (Even at that rate) WILL boost our overall earnings than if Pg Mgrs were just going it alone.
Remember Mahalo's business strategy is to make money. So I see a lot of potential in this Vertical Mgr investment.
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Remember Mahalo's business strategy is to make money. So I see a lot of potential in this Vertical Mgr investment.
November 13, 2009 04:38 PM
@gno... great point. Mahalo is giving 10% of page revenue also to create this new position...
maybe everyone should think about how much that really equals... WWWAAAYYY more than any one page manager is giving...
do we really think mahalo would do that if they thought the page manager would hurt all the pages?
thing is, mahalo can really see the big picture and what a VM would be able to do... we only see pieces related to our little sections within Mahalo.
if mahalo is willing to put up 10% across the board for all pages, shouldn't we have some kind of faith that they will watch what the VM's do?
and yes... that 10% of total earnings is 20% of what mahalo currently takes in per page.
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maybe everyone should think about how much that really equals... WWWAAAYYY more than any one page manager is giving...
do we really think mahalo would do that if they thought the page manager would hurt all the pages?
thing is, mahalo can really see the big picture and what a VM would be able to do... we only see pieces related to our little sections within Mahalo.
if mahalo is willing to put up 10% across the board for all pages, shouldn't we have some kind of faith that they will watch what the VM's do?
and yes... that 10% of total earnings is 20% of what mahalo currently takes in per page.
November 13, 2009 05:47 PM
Giving a 20% share of revenue is possibly a lot, esp as it seems VMs will be managing 750+ pages.
It might be interesting for page managers that are doing really well to have the option of not having a VM. If the VM is just there to provide added value and not be "a boss", there will definitely be instances in which the page manager doesn't need the help, at least not to the extent that it's worth 20% to them.
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It might be interesting for page managers that are doing really well to have the option of not having a VM. If the VM is just there to provide added value and not be "a boss", there will definitely be instances in which the page manager doesn't need the help, at least not to the extent that it's worth 20% to them.
November 13, 2009 01:46 PM
This new system is really great !!! I can't wait to have a good VM for my pages to instruct me regarding the updates and to help with the SEO things. As @Lon have said, 2 users submitting a page to a social bookmarking site is way greater than 1 user submission. The question I have is whether all the VMs will "work hard dedicated" as much as they can to bring the Mahalo page the best page out there on Net or just look over at the surface level ? Even they manage the pages and don't work hard, they will still get the revenue right ? Also, how would I get to know who my VM is ?
Will there be another box right under the "page managed by"... section mentioning the VM ?
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November 13, 2009 01:57 PM
I am sure mahalo will hold the VM's to a high standard, just as they do everyone else here. Even to be a VM I believe you have to have proven yourself. To quote @lon: "But membership in the group will be rather elite, and based on having an overall excellent track record of work on Mahalo, as well as a willingness to spend time in the site almost every day and a positive, constructive, collaborative attitude."
That sounds to me as if they will need to be actively trying to help the page managers they partner with... and it is a partnership.
And I am sure it will show on each page, because @lon has stated this before... and hopefully your new VM's would be contacting you, too! :)
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That sounds to me as if they will need to be actively trying to help the page managers they partner with... and it is a partnership.
And I am sure it will show on each page, because @lon has stated this before... and hopefully your new VM's would be contacting you, too! :)
November 13, 2009 01:55 PM
Since the VM would be taking 25% of revenue from the PM, it seems the VM should really be providing significant assistance to the PM. For example, if John Doe manages a page on XYZ coupons, has built up the page well, and is making M$100/month from it. Comes along Jack Smith as VM, and takes away M$25 from John's M$100. However, since the page is already well crafted and well maintained, Jack has no work to do on the page. Perhaps Jack posts some links elsewhere, but this has little impact on the income from the page. Should Jack still get M$25 from this page? Perhaps a better model would be to give existing pages to VMs only if they are not performing well. For those that are performing well, let the PMs keep them as is. Alternatively, if the VM is supposed to make things much better in terms of quality and income, let the VM take 25% or even 33% of any *increment* in that page's income. That will be a fair setup, where the VM actually earns their pay from the page.
For new pages the VM barn-raises, or for ones s/he researches, by all means, the VM should get a sizable fraction of the entire page income. However, do you really thing this should also hold for existing, well performing pages?
Just my M$0.02.
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November 13, 2009 02:03 PM
actually its 10% PM are loosing and to compensate we gain a partner, the VM.
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November 13, 2009 02:07 PM
@chriswingate We as page managers are receiving a 20% cut in earnings.
50% of of the total earned by the page is ours. that is 100% of our earnings. to have that 50% drop to 40% is a 1/5th drop in earnings 1/5th=20%
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50% of of the total earned by the page is ours. that is 100% of our earnings. to have that 50% drop to 40% is a 1/5th drop in earnings 1/5th=20%
November 13, 2009 02:09 PM
Sorry, no coffee yet this morning. @Buddawiggi is right. It's a 20% cut, not 25%. Still, my points above stand.
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November 13, 2009 02:16 PM
- Fact Refuted
The VM does not take 25% of revenue from the PM... in fact it would be 20% of the total current PM revenue
Right now it is 50% mahalo, 50% page manager
it is going to be 40% mahalo, 40% page manager and 20% vertical manager
The page manager gives up 10% of total page earnings for the help the vertical manager gives and Mahalo gives up 10%
The idea behind it is that every page in the vertical should benefit from what the VM does. Of course, @lon has stated if there is a problem with a particular page or an issue with a particular VM, we can always express our concerns to staff and they will look into it.
I know for sure that the desire is not to take anything away from existing managers. And some pages might not even have a VM, in which case @lon has also stated that the PM would continue to get 50% for the work they do.
I'm not sure it would even make sense from a programming aspect to try figure out what the difference in income would be and only give a percentage off of that, or even whether it could be done with the way AdSense can fluctuate.
What about when income falls because a page is seasonal?
I'm sure the Halloween pages that did so well last month won't bring the same income in July... so how could it even be quantified?
I think that it has to be across the board. It is fair because it is a flat standard across all pages. If there is a particular page that you think you lose income on and a VM does not contribute anything new, I'd take that up with staff for that particular page. If they agree, they could just remove the VM.
And with the scenario you have laid out, what about pages that are done that a PM takes over, without creating it outright? Would we also only give the percentage off of what the new page income is? Many people claimed pages that were already earning, and now reap the benefit of the work of others, and have hopefully improved the pages as they should. With your reasoning, no one should be able to claim unclaimed pages, because they did not research or create a new page.
I want to make sure I am coming across correctly here. I am not stating any of this in an argumentative tone, nor do I dispute your right to your opinion. I just think the logic is flawed when you carry it through and we need to look at the whole picture instead of focusing on just one part. Because what you said does make some sense, until you break it down... then I really don't agree at all.
and that's just my 2 cents, for what it's worth... =)
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Right now it is 50% mahalo, 50% page manager
it is going to be 40% mahalo, 40% page manager and 20% vertical manager
The page manager gives up 10% of total page earnings for the help the vertical manager gives and Mahalo gives up 10%
The idea behind it is that every page in the vertical should benefit from what the VM does. Of course, @lon has stated if there is a problem with a particular page or an issue with a particular VM, we can always express our concerns to staff and they will look into it.
I know for sure that the desire is not to take anything away from existing managers. And some pages might not even have a VM, in which case @lon has also stated that the PM would continue to get 50% for the work they do.
I'm not sure it would even make sense from a programming aspect to try figure out what the difference in income would be and only give a percentage off of that, or even whether it could be done with the way AdSense can fluctuate.
What about when income falls because a page is seasonal?
I'm sure the Halloween pages that did so well last month won't bring the same income in July... so how could it even be quantified?
I think that it has to be across the board. It is fair because it is a flat standard across all pages. If there is a particular page that you think you lose income on and a VM does not contribute anything new, I'd take that up with staff for that particular page. If they agree, they could just remove the VM.
And with the scenario you have laid out, what about pages that are done that a PM takes over, without creating it outright? Would we also only give the percentage off of what the new page income is? Many people claimed pages that were already earning, and now reap the benefit of the work of others, and have hopefully improved the pages as they should. With your reasoning, no one should be able to claim unclaimed pages, because they did not research or create a new page.
I want to make sure I am coming across correctly here. I am not stating any of this in an argumentative tone, nor do I dispute your right to your opinion. I just think the logic is flawed when you carry it through and we need to look at the whole picture instead of focusing on just one part. Because what you said does make some sense, until you break it down... then I really don't agree at all.
and that's just my 2 cents, for what it's worth... =)
November 13, 2009 02:27 PM
- Fact Refuted
100% earnings
50% mahalo 50% me
my 50% is 100% of my earnings
dropping from 50% to 40% is a 1/5th cut in earnings
a 1/5th cut in earnings is a 20% cut in earnings
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50% mahalo 50% me
my 50% is 100% of my earnings
dropping from 50% to 40% is a 1/5th cut in earnings
a 1/5th cut in earnings is a 20% cut in earnings
November 13, 2009 02:57 PM
@smartweb, first off, as I already noted in response to @Buddawiggi's comment, yes, the impact on PM revenue is 20%, not 25%. While this was inaccurate on my part, it is not IMO an apt use of "fact refuted."
As for your disagreeing with me, you're of course entitled to your opinion. It may not be possible technically to measure the difference in earnings resulting from the VM's efforts. However, it is a valid and actual problem if the VM does not bring any value to the page earnings, and drains away 20% of the PM's revenue. Saying that "It is fair because it is a flat standard across all pages" is meaningless. It's like saying its fair because the sky is blue. The benefit of having a VM depends on two things. First, is there an improvement to be made that the PM doesn't notice or doesn't know how to carry out, and second, does the VM notice and can s/he help guide the PM in making said improvement. Since not all pages have the same level of need for improvement, and not all VMs will be as good as all other VMs, having a flat rate is patently unfair.
Your point that some pages were pre-made and adopted by the current PM is valid. However, that's how Mahalo set things up so far. Nobody lost through that process, since Mahalo paid someone to build those pages, and presumably they chose not to manage them. Thus, by having a new PM come in and adopt the page, nobody lost anything. However, by bringing in a VM to an existing page, the PM is losing income, unless the VM can increase revenue by at least 25% (and yes, this time it *is* 25% because if the total revenue is M$200, and the PM is currently getting M$100 of that, of which the VM takes away M$20 from the PM's slice, the overall revenue needs to go up 25% to M$250 for the PM's new slice to be back to the same M$100 s/he got before the VM came into the picture).
So, how can Mahalo make this fair?
1. Allow a PM to accept/decline having a VM.
2. Allow a PM to dismiss a VM if after an appropriate time (for seasonal pages this may need to be a year, for most pages probably 2-3 months) there is insufficient improvement in page revenue to justify paying out 20% to a VM.
3. Allow PMs to bid what fraction of their page revenue they're willing to offer, and for how long, and let VMs decide if they're willing to come in and help on the page in question for the revenue offered.
If this is to be a true collaborative process, you can't ram the VM down the PM's throat at the PM's expense and hope it'll just all work out somehow.
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As for your disagreeing with me, you're of course entitled to your opinion. It may not be possible technically to measure the difference in earnings resulting from the VM's efforts. However, it is a valid and actual problem if the VM does not bring any value to the page earnings, and drains away 20% of the PM's revenue. Saying that "It is fair because it is a flat standard across all pages" is meaningless. It's like saying its fair because the sky is blue. The benefit of having a VM depends on two things. First, is there an improvement to be made that the PM doesn't notice or doesn't know how to carry out, and second, does the VM notice and can s/he help guide the PM in making said improvement. Since not all pages have the same level of need for improvement, and not all VMs will be as good as all other VMs, having a flat rate is patently unfair.
Your point that some pages were pre-made and adopted by the current PM is valid. However, that's how Mahalo set things up so far. Nobody lost through that process, since Mahalo paid someone to build those pages, and presumably they chose not to manage them. Thus, by having a new PM come in and adopt the page, nobody lost anything. However, by bringing in a VM to an existing page, the PM is losing income, unless the VM can increase revenue by at least 25% (and yes, this time it *is* 25% because if the total revenue is M$200, and the PM is currently getting M$100 of that, of which the VM takes away M$20 from the PM's slice, the overall revenue needs to go up 25% to M$250 for the PM's new slice to be back to the same M$100 s/he got before the VM came into the picture).
So, how can Mahalo make this fair?
1. Allow a PM to accept/decline having a VM.
2. Allow a PM to dismiss a VM if after an appropriate time (for seasonal pages this may need to be a year, for most pages probably 2-3 months) there is insufficient improvement in page revenue to justify paying out 20% to a VM.
3. Allow PMs to bid what fraction of their page revenue they're willing to offer, and for how long, and let VMs decide if they're willing to come in and help on the page in question for the revenue offered.
If this is to be a true collaborative process, you can't ram the VM down the PM's throat at the PM's expense and hope it'll just all work out somehow.
November 13, 2009 03:25 PM
mine and buddawiggi's comments overlapped.when i started my response you had no comments. =)
ok.
couple of things.
Knowing what I know about adsense and earnings on the internet... there is no way you will be able to say i lost $XX for this page because of the VM. It just is not possible. The cost for the terms could have changed. The advertiser could have stopped running that particular campaign. Google could change the rules. Another page could come out that is better than yours and push yours down in the rankings. There could be some new fad that keeps people from looking at your page. We could have a recession, we could have a national tradgedy... I could go on and on and on.
There is no way to say how much you received or lost... only whether it seemed to go up or down... but you still will never know for sure why... and that does go both ways. All increases in income will not be because of something the VM does.
That's like saying a new president coming into office is responsible for unemployment or national economy two months into office... it is the way it is because of what has gone before in many cases.
So a page could go up or down from something you did prior to the VM coming on board.
And how can you say that having a flat rate is patently unfair because the quality of the VM will not be the same?? O.o
The quality of PM's is not the same, but they all get the same rate. What if there is a low quality PM and the VM significantly improves things just in that vertical, even if they didn't change that particular page? Is it fair that the PM will get more than they did? Shouldn't the VM get some kind of bonus for that?? See? There is no way to quantify things for a system like that.
Everyone in a vertical should benefit from having a VM in that vertical, whether he/she is that particular PM's VM or not. That is the way it should work. I have confidence that if a VM is not bringing improvements they will be replaced with someone else who will.
I don't think the ways you have listed to make it fair will. As it is the VM's in some verticals will not make enough on the pages in that vertical to make their work worth it. Lon has already talked about ways to make sure every VM will get enough to cover what they are doing. They are going to be doing much more than helping PM's with individual pages. A Lot more.
And all of Mahalo will reap the benefits... even those without VM's.
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ok.
couple of things.
Knowing what I know about adsense and earnings on the internet... there is no way you will be able to say i lost $XX for this page because of the VM. It just is not possible. The cost for the terms could have changed. The advertiser could have stopped running that particular campaign. Google could change the rules. Another page could come out that is better than yours and push yours down in the rankings. There could be some new fad that keeps people from looking at your page. We could have a recession, we could have a national tradgedy... I could go on and on and on.
There is no way to say how much you received or lost... only whether it seemed to go up or down... but you still will never know for sure why... and that does go both ways. All increases in income will not be because of something the VM does.
That's like saying a new president coming into office is responsible for unemployment or national economy two months into office... it is the way it is because of what has gone before in many cases.
So a page could go up or down from something you did prior to the VM coming on board.
And how can you say that having a flat rate is patently unfair because the quality of the VM will not be the same?? O.o
The quality of PM's is not the same, but they all get the same rate. What if there is a low quality PM and the VM significantly improves things just in that vertical, even if they didn't change that particular page? Is it fair that the PM will get more than they did? Shouldn't the VM get some kind of bonus for that?? See? There is no way to quantify things for a system like that.
Everyone in a vertical should benefit from having a VM in that vertical, whether he/she is that particular PM's VM or not. That is the way it should work. I have confidence that if a VM is not bringing improvements they will be replaced with someone else who will.
I don't think the ways you have listed to make it fair will. As it is the VM's in some verticals will not make enough on the pages in that vertical to make their work worth it. Lon has already talked about ways to make sure every VM will get enough to cover what they are doing. They are going to be doing much more than helping PM's with individual pages. A Lot more.
And all of Mahalo will reap the benefits... even those without VM's.
November 13, 2009 03:41 PM
@smartweb paying 20% for ambiguity and uncertainty in any business is unwise at best and downright foolish in most cases.
I would like to see a model (I'm sure we will) from a itemized results standpoint what *exactly* the VM has done and how it has helped improve revenue. If I were to loan someone $20000.00 and asking them to make me some money with it and they said "Well @buddawiggi you might not be able to tell if what I am doing with your money is making it earn or lose" I would pull the check back immediately and walk away. Fast.
I am not saying we are talking that amount of money now but we might in the future some managers are earning $6000.00 a year on one page. Will the manager of that page be interested in giving $1200.00 to a VM for an unproven method of increasing the overall income by more than the percentage given in the initial investment?
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I would like to see a model (I'm sure we will) from a itemized results standpoint what *exactly* the VM has done and how it has helped improve revenue. If I were to loan someone $20000.00 and asking them to make me some money with it and they said "Well @buddawiggi you might not be able to tell if what I am doing with your money is making it earn or lose" I would pull the check back immediately and walk away. Fast.
I am not saying we are talking that amount of money now but we might in the future some managers are earning $6000.00 a year on one page. Will the manager of that page be interested in giving $1200.00 to a VM for an unproven method of increasing the overall income by more than the percentage given in the initial investment?
November 13, 2009 03:56 PM
the point is still being missed and i'm just not sure how to say it any other way.
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November 13, 2009 04:03 PM
@samrtweb I can see your point(s) exactly.
I just don't buy the argument that 20% of our income is the right amount.
**The VMs should be paid on a sliding scale of overall improvement in revenue. Keeping them within the confines of a responsible business model.
This 20% flat rate only guarantees us less money and offers us the **possibility** of improved revenue.
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I just don't buy the argument that 20% of our income is the right amount.
**The VMs should be paid on a sliding scale of overall improvement in revenue. Keeping them within the confines of a responsible business model.
This 20% flat rate only guarantees us less money and offers us the **possibility** of improved revenue.
November 13, 2009 04:20 PM
oh, bud...
have you even read *everything* i have written? there is no way you could possible quantify any exact amount that a VM brings in addition to what the PM has done.
the PM could have made a drastic change to the page the day before the VM comes on board and Google might not notice for days... so three days later the ranking tanks and it would be blamed on the VM even though it was something the PM did. see my point? results are not instant. revenue is not instant.
there is no way to decide what portion was an improvement the VM made or the PM made.
maybe the PM finally understood something new and added it to the page 2 days after the VM started. or maybe a page was made previously, and then suddenly the main keyword is a big news story... who was responsible?
let's look at it another way... if you are going to try to put a system like this in place and only pay the VM what they increase the page... then shouldn't that apply to the PM as well? there will be pages that the VM has, that maybe are new, maybe someone abandoned, maybe they are old and never were claimed.
The VM can assign that page to a page manager. Now, do we track new income and try to figure out how much of that was due to adding the page manager? No one would even suggest a thing, because as was already said, "However, that's how Mahalo set things up so far. Nobody lost through that process, since Mahalo paid someone to build those pages, and presumably they chose not to manage them. Thus, by having a new PM come in and adopt the page, nobody lost anything."
But now, the income for the VM on the page would have to be subjective... because we don't want that PM losing what they could have if it didn't have a VM, as any page that only has a PM pays that PM 50%. So now we should remove the VM, right?
See? The more you go down that road the muddier it gets. You just can't go there. You have to institute a system across the board and the VM has to get paid.
Personally, when I saw 20% I wasn't sure it was enough. I'm still wondering how VM's are going to get paid enough to do everything that it is said they will be doing. Yes, they can have up to 3000 pages... but I'm envisioning having 3000 PM's expecting the VM to do a lot of advertising, which is just not possible, and a lot of suggestions for their one page (which adds up to 3000 pages EACH with a lot of suggestions) and so on and so forth. And that doesn't even take into account barnraisings and fleshing out verticals with new pages and such...
So I would not be surprised at all if some things didn't split off later to become even another position.
But I'm willing to wait and see how this works out. I think that some people's fears of VM's changing all their pages is so unfounded. Who would have the time to go in and redo a whole page that didn't need it? Especially if it is working and making money?
But ANYTHING that the VM does for the vertical benefits the entire vertical... and that is worth each person getting a little less per page. It is no different than a small tax increase so you have policemen or firemen or decent roads... everyone in the county or city benefits, so everyone helps give to make it a reality.
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have you even read *everything* i have written? there is no way you could possible quantify any exact amount that a VM brings in addition to what the PM has done.
the PM could have made a drastic change to the page the day before the VM comes on board and Google might not notice for days... so three days later the ranking tanks and it would be blamed on the VM even though it was something the PM did. see my point? results are not instant. revenue is not instant.
there is no way to decide what portion was an improvement the VM made or the PM made.
maybe the PM finally understood something new and added it to the page 2 days after the VM started. or maybe a page was made previously, and then suddenly the main keyword is a big news story... who was responsible?
let's look at it another way... if you are going to try to put a system like this in place and only pay the VM what they increase the page... then shouldn't that apply to the PM as well? there will be pages that the VM has, that maybe are new, maybe someone abandoned, maybe they are old and never were claimed.
The VM can assign that page to a page manager. Now, do we track new income and try to figure out how much of that was due to adding the page manager? No one would even suggest a thing, because as was already said, "However, that's how Mahalo set things up so far. Nobody lost through that process, since Mahalo paid someone to build those pages, and presumably they chose not to manage them. Thus, by having a new PM come in and adopt the page, nobody lost anything."
But now, the income for the VM on the page would have to be subjective... because we don't want that PM losing what they could have if it didn't have a VM, as any page that only has a PM pays that PM 50%. So now we should remove the VM, right?
See? The more you go down that road the muddier it gets. You just can't go there. You have to institute a system across the board and the VM has to get paid.
Personally, when I saw 20% I wasn't sure it was enough. I'm still wondering how VM's are going to get paid enough to do everything that it is said they will be doing. Yes, they can have up to 3000 pages... but I'm envisioning having 3000 PM's expecting the VM to do a lot of advertising, which is just not possible, and a lot of suggestions for their one page (which adds up to 3000 pages EACH with a lot of suggestions) and so on and so forth. And that doesn't even take into account barnraisings and fleshing out verticals with new pages and such...
So I would not be surprised at all if some things didn't split off later to become even another position.
But I'm willing to wait and see how this works out. I think that some people's fears of VM's changing all their pages is so unfounded. Who would have the time to go in and redo a whole page that didn't need it? Especially if it is working and making money?
But ANYTHING that the VM does for the vertical benefits the entire vertical... and that is worth each person getting a little less per page. It is no different than a small tax increase so you have policemen or firemen or decent roads... everyone in the county or city benefits, so everyone helps give to make it a reality.
November 13, 2009 04:38 PM
@smartweb I have read all you have written and still do not see how Mahalo can quantify using 20% of our earnings to pay vertical managers when they can technically fire us.
For the sum of a guaranteed 20% of our earnings it is we who should be able..no.. _required_ to hold the VM accountable for their actions in increasing revenue to the pages. If they can't increase revenue than they should not be paid. Why would anyone hire a representative and pay them anything for decreased or stagnant revenue?
We, the PMs should be required to fire the vertical manager if they can't increase revenue or it stagnates not the other way around or at they very least have them be accountable for their action by receiving their percentage as a sliding representation of their performance as it to relates to the vertical they manage.
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For the sum of a guaranteed 20% of our earnings it is we who should be able..no.. _required_ to hold the VM accountable for their actions in increasing revenue to the pages. If they can't increase revenue than they should not be paid. Why would anyone hire a representative and pay them anything for decreased or stagnant revenue?
We, the PMs should be required to fire the vertical manager if they can't increase revenue or it stagnates not the other way around or at they very least have them be accountable for their action by receiving their percentage as a sliding representation of their performance as it to relates to the vertical they manage.
November 13, 2009 05:11 PM
I completely agree with all that @Buddawiggi says. @Smartweb, if there is no way to quantify the benefit of having a VM, why should the PM have to definitely pay a well quantified 20% of his/her revenue? As a writer, if I hire an editor, I pay the editor a one-time fee. I don't cut them in on my royalties. Perhaps instead of VMs we should have page editors who get paid per task of improving an under-performing page.
On the other hand I do understand and appreciate the difficulty of coming up with a workable technical solution, especially since Mahalo has seen fit to go the VM route. So, how about this. Offer the VM 20% as Mahalo is planning, but cap it at some reasonable amount. Perhaps M$10/month/page maximum. This way, if my page is not performing well, and only generates M$20/month, the VM has a lot of potential value, and can turn it (or advise me in turning it) into a well-performing M$200/month page. At that point, I gain by going from M$10/month (50% of M$20/month) to M$80/month (40% of M$200/month) while the VM gets M$20/month for a long time, even though their effort may have been a one-time editorial suggestion.
For a VM managing 3000 pages that translates to a maximum of M$60,000/month, which is quite generous. Consider also that if a VM works full-time on 3000 pages, s/he is only able to provide an average of 3.36 minutes per month per page! For that level of effort, paying up to M$20/page/month works out to a cap of over M$357/hour. How many people do you know who get paid at that rate?
You might then ask what about a VM who is managing "only" 750 pages. For this VM, they can put in an average of 13.44 minutes/page/month. Their cap would work out to M$89/hour. Still not too shabby, wouldn't you agree?
The advantage to the PM of the well-crafted, highly performing page is that their revenue drain is minimized, which is appropriate given the fact that they don't really need the VM, and probably would prefer not to have one.
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On the other hand I do understand and appreciate the difficulty of coming up with a workable technical solution, especially since Mahalo has seen fit to go the VM route. So, how about this. Offer the VM 20% as Mahalo is planning, but cap it at some reasonable amount. Perhaps M$10/month/page maximum. This way, if my page is not performing well, and only generates M$20/month, the VM has a lot of potential value, and can turn it (or advise me in turning it) into a well-performing M$200/month page. At that point, I gain by going from M$10/month (50% of M$20/month) to M$80/month (40% of M$200/month) while the VM gets M$20/month for a long time, even though their effort may have been a one-time editorial suggestion.
For a VM managing 3000 pages that translates to a maximum of M$60,000/month, which is quite generous. Consider also that if a VM works full-time on 3000 pages, s/he is only able to provide an average of 3.36 minutes per month per page! For that level of effort, paying up to M$20/page/month works out to a cap of over M$357/hour. How many people do you know who get paid at that rate?
You might then ask what about a VM who is managing "only" 750 pages. For this VM, they can put in an average of 13.44 minutes/page/month. Their cap would work out to M$89/hour. Still not too shabby, wouldn't you agree?
The advantage to the PM of the well-crafted, highly performing page is that their revenue drain is minimized, which is appropriate given the fact that they don't really need the VM, and probably would prefer not to have one.
November 13, 2009 05:33 PM
Opher said it beautifully.
As you said, my Mahalo pages belong to Mahalo. It is up to Mahalo if they want to take more percentage to fund their operation. It is how every company works.
But to give that money to other people who whose effort is not certain is another matter entirely. This VM is pretty different with agent or publicist because the author CHOOSE their agents/publicists and can fire them at anytime if they feel the agents/publicists aren't doing their job. it is also the author's right NOT to use any agent and publicist at all. It is not the case with VMs.
If the pages belong to Mahalo, then the Mahalo staffs should be the one responsible for the pages, not some other people.
Mahalo company has the way to give training, penalty, support, and supervision to their staffs, but they do not have so much power with freelancers.
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As you said, my Mahalo pages belong to Mahalo. It is up to Mahalo if they want to take more percentage to fund their operation. It is how every company works.
But to give that money to other people who whose effort is not certain is another matter entirely. This VM is pretty different with agent or publicist because the author CHOOSE their agents/publicists and can fire them at anytime if they feel the agents/publicists aren't doing their job. it is also the author's right NOT to use any agent and publicist at all. It is not the case with VMs.
If the pages belong to Mahalo, then the Mahalo staffs should be the one responsible for the pages, not some other people.
Mahalo company has the way to give training, penalty, support, and supervision to their staffs, but they do not have so much power with freelancers.
November 13, 2009 05:53 PM
If a VM is managing 750+ pages just how much help could they really give you anyway? Are they going to write 750 blog posts a month? Tweet 200 times day? Review 25 pages every day for quality?
I think the finding the right balance between "What a VM does" and "How many pages they oversee" is going to be really key, and would determine what is a fair share of the revenue.
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I think the finding the right balance between "What a VM does" and "How many pages they oversee" is going to be really key, and would determine what is a fair share of the revenue.
November 13, 2009 06:57 PM
@opher
I do find that system to be more interesting. It would no longer be subject to trying to determine what actual $ contribution the VM made to the page, however, in some instances, some pages need a lot more suggestions, so the cap might not allow enough income... and we still have to remember that the VM is raising the bar for the whole vertical.
Also... not every page would make that much.
One other thing, how would you figure for the fact that although the PM's have a limit of 1000 pages, they have no cap on their income, even though they are only managing pages, while under your new system the VM's would effectively have a salary cap of M$10 per page even though they are doing much more than just helping the page managers.
I see why Mahalo did it this way. They have to come up with the revenue. And as a page manager myself, I do see your point. I just don't see a solution to pay the VM's that doesn't cut into the PM's current revenue.
I don't understand something you said though... why would it be ok for you to benefit much more than the VM for his "one-time" suggestion. You also talk about a M$10 cap but said the VM would bet M$20/month for that one suggestion.
Ultimately it is Mahalo's decision. We just have to make it work for ourselves.
They will work out the details.
I am sure that no matter what they decide, someone will still have suggestions to make it "more fair" and those suggestions are not necessarily wrong, they just might not work in a real world situation across the board.
And no matter how many pages a VM manages, there is still the question of everything else they are doing. They may feel they are not getting enough. I have no idea, but I'm sure time will tell. =)
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I do find that system to be more interesting. It would no longer be subject to trying to determine what actual $ contribution the VM made to the page, however, in some instances, some pages need a lot more suggestions, so the cap might not allow enough income... and we still have to remember that the VM is raising the bar for the whole vertical.
Also... not every page would make that much.
One other thing, how would you figure for the fact that although the PM's have a limit of 1000 pages, they have no cap on their income, even though they are only managing pages, while under your new system the VM's would effectively have a salary cap of M$10 per page even though they are doing much more than just helping the page managers.
I see why Mahalo did it this way. They have to come up with the revenue. And as a page manager myself, I do see your point. I just don't see a solution to pay the VM's that doesn't cut into the PM's current revenue.
I don't understand something you said though... why would it be ok for you to benefit much more than the VM for his "one-time" suggestion. You also talk about a M$10 cap but said the VM would bet M$20/month for that one suggestion.
Ultimately it is Mahalo's decision. We just have to make it work for ourselves.
They will work out the details.
I am sure that no matter what they decide, someone will still have suggestions to make it "more fair" and those suggestions are not necessarily wrong, they just might not work in a real world situation across the board.
And no matter how many pages a VM manages, there is still the question of everything else they are doing. They may feel they are not getting enough. I have no idea, but I'm sure time will tell. =)
November 13, 2009 07:00 PM
@lidyax
You said: "As you said, my Mahalo pages belong to Mahalo. It is up to Mahalo if they want to take more percentage to fund their operation. It is how every company works."
Actually, this is exactly what they are doing. For any page that has a vertical manager, they are taking more percentage to fund the operation of that page and that vertical.
And I think they absolutely do have the power to do what they want with freelancers, even more so than their employees. The employees can have contracts, and cannot just have their salaries changed as easily.
Both employees and freelancers can be fired or removed from their posts. They absolutely do have the power.
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You said: "As you said, my Mahalo pages belong to Mahalo. It is up to Mahalo if they want to take more percentage to fund their operation. It is how every company works."
Actually, this is exactly what they are doing. For any page that has a vertical manager, they are taking more percentage to fund the operation of that page and that vertical.
And I think they absolutely do have the power to do what they want with freelancers, even more so than their employees. The employees can have contracts, and cannot just have their salaries changed as easily.
Both employees and freelancers can be fired or removed from their posts. They absolutely do have the power.
November 13, 2009 08:14 PM
@smartweb, the discrepancy between the M$20 and M$10 is only because I assumed (as Mahalo is currently anyway planning to do) that half the VM's income comes out of the PM's slice and half from Mahalo's.
To be very clear, Mahalo has all the power to do what and how they want. We're playing in *their* sandbox. However, based on my experience with them, they try to be fair. That's what I'm counting on here. Perhaps I (or someone else) will come up with a suggestion on a way to make things more fair that Mahalo will like, and adopt.
As far as whether it's fair that the PM gets the majority of benefit relative to the VM, the VM has much less work than the PM for that page. Also, the VM can be a PM him/herself on other pages.
Finally, if we're talking about an idea for a page that the VM has thought up, and the PM comes in, adopts it, creates the page, and the whole thing is a partnership, I don't see the need as much for such a cap. However, for a page that the PM thinks up and creates, and the VM drops in for 3 or 4 minutes a month and shoots off an email to the PM suggesting this or that tweak, that IMO does not justify an unlimited 20% share in revenue.
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To be very clear, Mahalo has all the power to do what and how they want. We're playing in *their* sandbox. However, based on my experience with them, they try to be fair. That's what I'm counting on here. Perhaps I (or someone else) will come up with a suggestion on a way to make things more fair that Mahalo will like, and adopt.
As far as whether it's fair that the PM gets the majority of benefit relative to the VM, the VM has much less work than the PM for that page. Also, the VM can be a PM him/herself on other pages.
Finally, if we're talking about an idea for a page that the VM has thought up, and the PM comes in, adopts it, creates the page, and the whole thing is a partnership, I don't see the need as much for such a cap. However, for a page that the PM thinks up and creates, and the VM drops in for 3 or 4 minutes a month and shoots off an email to the PM suggesting this or that tweak, that IMO does not justify an unlimited 20% share in revenue.
November 13, 2009 09:00 PM
Great debate @buddawiggi and @smartweb! You both make solid points and I appreciate you keeping the conversation positive and civil.
Mahalo and I will never do anything that is not in the best interests of the entire community: page managers, users, vertical managers, shareholders, advertisers and our staff. So, we're doing this because we think it will work. If it doesn't we will switch back.
In our judgement we have a major problem if only one person is involved in the page, so we're increasing to two people so one can do the page and one can do the vertical level stuff (checking the page, scoring it, categorizing it, marketing it).
I'm 100% certain this will result in better pages, which means a better user experience, which means a better business in the long run.
We are going to keep changing things as we grow, so if you're not comfortable with a rock ride now would be a good time to get off the bus!
That being said, we want everyone here to stick with it, but understand if you don't want to be in a project that changes as quickly as Mahalo does.
best. Jason, CEO of Mahalo.
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Mahalo and I will never do anything that is not in the best interests of the entire community: page managers, users, vertical managers, shareholders, advertisers and our staff. So, we're doing this because we think it will work. If it doesn't we will switch back.
In our judgement we have a major problem if only one person is involved in the page, so we're increasing to two people so one can do the page and one can do the vertical level stuff (checking the page, scoring it, categorizing it, marketing it).
I'm 100% certain this will result in better pages, which means a better user experience, which means a better business in the long run.
We are going to keep changing things as we grow, so if you're not comfortable with a rock ride now would be a good time to get off the bus!
That being said, we want everyone here to stick with it, but understand if you don't want to be in a project that changes as quickly as Mahalo does.
best. Jason, CEO of Mahalo.
November 13, 2009 11:57 PM
Hi @jasoncalacanis thank you for responding in this thread. I am here for the long haul and I would never want to leave.
@smartweb and I might have even been having some fun for a while there. (I hope so as I meant no disrespect) Hi @smartweb! :)
I am always appreciative of the community here and love the active and positive participation. @smartweb is a superb contributor and I owe her a lot for helping me with my pages. Especially the most recent of mine.
I am always skeptical and tend to see the downside of things first but am easily turned around but positivity and Mahalo has no shortage of that.
Every other change since I have become an active user here I have met with equal but maybe less vocal skepticism and each and every time my skepticism has been *squashed* with a few days of the changes being implemented. This is good news to me as I am counting on you guys and the community to do the same sort of magic as all times before.
I love this place.
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@smartweb and I might have even been having some fun for a while there. (I hope so as I meant no disrespect) Hi @smartweb! :)
I am always appreciative of the community here and love the active and positive participation. @smartweb is a superb contributor and I owe her a lot for helping me with my pages. Especially the most recent of mine.
I am always skeptical and tend to see the downside of things first but am easily turned around but positivity and Mahalo has no shortage of that.
Every other change since I have become an active user here I have met with equal but maybe less vocal skepticism and each and every time my skepticism has been *squashed* with a few days of the changes being implemented. This is good news to me as I am counting on you guys and the community to do the same sort of magic as all times before.
I love this place.
November 14, 2009 12:32 AM
Thanks for all that honesty @buddawiggi!
We're all going to get there together or we're not gonna get there.
at the end of the day, I can tell you we're gonna have a lot of fun and be really proud of the product.
see you at the Mahalo 3.0 launch at 5pm pacific on Sunday.
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We're all going to get there together or we're not gonna get there.
at the end of the day, I can tell you we're gonna have a lot of fun and be really proud of the product.
see you at the Mahalo 3.0 launch at 5pm pacific on Sunday.
November 14, 2009 12:51 AM
Part of the reason that Mahalo is so great for me is the chance it gives to the members to discuss and talk openly with the staffs and the CEO directly and the quickness they respond to the members. I don't think Associated Content's CEO will be so directly involved with the members. So I will take a time to thank Jason here for your involvement with us.
Based on the experience I have so far, I know that the Mahalo staffs are very helpful and supportive, and I hope the new VMs will reflect the helpfulness and the supportiveness of the staffs here.
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Based on the experience I have so far, I know that the Mahalo staffs are very helpful and supportive, and I hope the new VMs will reflect the helpfulness and the supportiveness of the staffs here.
November 14, 2009 03:07 AM
For whatever it's worth, I'm here for the long haul as well. If I think something can be tweaked better, I'll speak up about it. Could I be wrong? It's been known to happen, rarely ;). However, my comments come from a commitment to the best and most successful Mahalo we can build, not from negativity.
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November 14, 2009 07:11 PM
@buddawiggi... You said:
"I am always skeptical and tend to see the downside of things first..."
Firstly, that hasn't been my impression of you at all! But more importantly, the best and most successful teams have a balance of different types of people. People that are always scanning for potential problems are as useful as people that are always upbeat. A team made up of all constant naysayers or all eternal optimists tends to have their own ways of coming to grief.
Personally I think the VM concept is basically very good, but the precise role of the VM and rigth amount of revenue share are things that will only be discovered through experience, trial and error.
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"I am always skeptical and tend to see the downside of things first..."
Firstly, that hasn't been my impression of you at all! But more importantly, the best and most successful teams have a balance of different types of people. People that are always scanning for potential problems are as useful as people that are always upbeat. A team made up of all constant naysayers or all eternal optimists tends to have their own ways of coming to grief.
Personally I think the VM concept is basically very good, but the precise role of the VM and rigth amount of revenue share are things that will only be discovered through experience, trial and error.
November 15, 2009 05:05 AM
Thanks for the input, @Jasoncalacanis! See... I knew that's what you'd do! Nothing is set in stone, it can be reversed if it doesn't work. Everyone is considered in the decision making process. It's all about improvement... improving everyone's experience and improving the quality of the site.
One more thing I love about this place. I'm so excited to see the new look! I was hoping I'd see it up tonight, but I can wait.
...and @buddawiggi... I never thought you were disrespecting me. we all have things to say, and I think that seeing all sides is important.
I even liked the way @opher kept coming up with new and creative ways for the VM's to get paid for their work. Very interesting.
I don't agree with everything that was said, and I know you all don't agree with me. That's ok.
'Cause I'm also in it for the long haul, and I know things will keep improving. Our individual opinions won't change things overall, but we are all heard... and that's just nice! =)
You never know when one opinion will spark a change though... I've seen it before. =)
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One more thing I love about this place. I'm so excited to see the new look! I was hoping I'd see it up tonight, but I can wait.
...and @buddawiggi... I never thought you were disrespecting me. we all have things to say, and I think that seeing all sides is important.
I even liked the way @opher kept coming up with new and creative ways for the VM's to get paid for their work. Very interesting.
I don't agree with everything that was said, and I know you all don't agree with me. That's ok.
'Cause I'm also in it for the long haul, and I know things will keep improving. Our individual opinions won't change things overall, but we are all heard... and that's just nice! =)
You never know when one opinion will spark a change though... I've seen it before. =)
November 13, 2009 02:18 PM
This article was very informative.
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Voted as best: buddawiggi
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November 13, 2009 02:38 PM
I am very excited about this and want to be a v-manager. I will look back over the tutorial, and refresh my mind because I only heard half of it. blame that one on a false alarm of breaking water, but the start of real labor which was 4 days over due! (sorry very excited there about my brand new grand daughter who is 25 hours old now) I think my experience with SEO will help me to help those here who are struggling with it (I am no where as good as Smartweb but I succeed). When people ask me how to do something I can tell them how to tweak the article (as I have done on other sites) BUT as a V-manager here I can go make the tweaks myself and then they see what changed.
I see this v-manger stuff a win-win for all involved.
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November 13, 2009 02:41 PM
Would you be willing to be a vertical manager in return for a fraction (say 25% or 33%) of any *improvement* in revenue you bring to the page, and where you get nothing if there is no improvement in page revenue as a result of your efforts?
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November 13, 2009 07:10 PM
Well, I am starting to see this other side here too. I will loose money on all of my pages 10 percent, and yeah that would suck giving some one else what I worked hard for. BUT 1.) I would not have to give up all my money makers 2.) I could give up sucky pages that I do not make me as much money.
But if I am the v-manage of several pages i get 20 percent all pages i have a hand in.
let's say among those 1,000 only 10 are ones that go viral, there goes my income.. if I have 400-500 pages that bring in a bit of money a month he every penny adds up just like A Certain site we write on.. Not only do I make money of those but the page managers would too..
Yeah Give up 10% on all to get 20% of a lot...I think that would make up for any loss of money there plus I would be helping others who might not be able to update stuff all the time, or perhaps they don't know how to promote.
I would have been so sunk in the water last month when I could not sit for long at the computer for health reasons if it had not been for my helpers who updated my pages (THANKS by the way to those helpers)...
Every July I do a 2-3 week vacation, if I want to do a 4 week one next year being a v-manager I can cuz the others will be back here working...
Also its a heads up on editing which I suck at sometimes...
Good and bad both here but I think more good than bad
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But if I am the v-manage of several pages i get 20 percent all pages i have a hand in.
let's say among those 1,000 only 10 are ones that go viral, there goes my income.. if I have 400-500 pages that bring in a bit of money a month he every penny adds up just like A Certain site we write on.. Not only do I make money of those but the page managers would too..
Yeah Give up 10% on all to get 20% of a lot...I think that would make up for any loss of money there plus I would be helping others who might not be able to update stuff all the time, or perhaps they don't know how to promote.
I would have been so sunk in the water last month when I could not sit for long at the computer for health reasons if it had not been for my helpers who updated my pages (THANKS by the way to those helpers)...
Every July I do a 2-3 week vacation, if I want to do a 4 week one next year being a v-manager I can cuz the others will be back here working...
Also its a heads up on editing which I suck at sometimes...
Good and bad both here but I think more good than bad
November 13, 2009 04:24 PM
After reading everyone's answers and comments, I have to agree with a lot of them in that I too am very skeptical of how this is going to turn out. I'd like to remain positive, but at the same time I'm seeing this in terms of the money I'm going to lose due to this new system. By cutting us down to earning 40%, we are losing 20% of our income - and in my case that's about M$140 a month (I'm averaging M$700 p/mo from page management right now). I don't know what else a vertical manager could do for my pages that is worth me giving up that kind of money. I feel like I've done an excellent job in creating and promoting my pages, and I don't know what else is left for a VM to do but sit back and collect the earnings. I'd really like to have a positive outlook on this whole VM issue, but I'm finding that to be a very difficult thing to do. I really hope I'm wrong and that this will turn out to be a benefit for everyone involved.
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November 13, 2009 05:36 PM
Exactly! My page management income is still very low, since I just got started. Had Mahalo asked me, I'd have said no thanks. I'll stand by my work and get the revenue I generate through my own efforts.
I'd be much happier if they provided a group of certified page managers who know how to create and maintain excellent pages, as a resource that we could hire for either a set number of M$s, or another agreement we as PMs make with them if we choose to, to get their input.
If Mahalo thinks VMs will increase everyone's revenue, as predicted by @Smartweb, Mahalo should have either funded this entirely from their end of the ad revenue (after all, they get 62.5% to our 37.5%) or else allowed PMs to opt in (or at the very least opt out) to having a VM.
Note that I'm trying to be positive here, but all I'm reading on the positive side is "it'll be fine, just wait and see. VMs will make everyone's revenue go up." I'll be very happy to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that changing the terms by taking 20% of our revenue and giving it to someone who will be putting in a few minutes per month on average per page is not the best way to do this.
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I'd be much happier if they provided a group of certified page managers who know how to create and maintain excellent pages, as a resource that we could hire for either a set number of M$s, or another agreement we as PMs make with them if we choose to, to get their input.
If Mahalo thinks VMs will increase everyone's revenue, as predicted by @Smartweb, Mahalo should have either funded this entirely from their end of the ad revenue (after all, they get 62.5% to our 37.5%) or else allowed PMs to opt in (or at the very least opt out) to having a VM.
Note that I'm trying to be positive here, but all I'm reading on the positive side is "it'll be fine, just wait and see. VMs will make everyone's revenue go up." I'll be very happy to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that changing the terms by taking 20% of our revenue and giving it to someone who will be putting in a few minutes per month on average per page is not the best way to do this.
November 13, 2009 07:08 PM
oh, hey... i'm not saying everyone's revenue will definitely go up... just that that "should" be the effect of what a VM is supposed to do in the big picture of a vertical... yikes!
*envisions a lynch mob if all mahalo revenue does not increase*
*ducks and runs for the hills!!*
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*envisions a lynch mob if all mahalo revenue does not increase*
*ducks and runs for the hills!!*
November 13, 2009 07:33 PM
@smartweb ~~this quote "i'm not saying everyone's revenue will definitely go up... just that that "should" be the effect of what a VM is supposed to do in the big picture of a vertical"
"Should go up" is tough to swallow as a benefit. Revenue has to go up a lot.
Revenue does not only have to increase, which I'm sure it will, revenue has to increase *beyond the 20% tax* on our earnings.
If it increases by 15% then it is still a 5% loss in revenue for the PM and that is the concern with the way this payment system of the VMs.
In all fairness I can see the need for tighter regulations on the managed pages but to tax the page manager (who is right now the VM as well of their own profile vertical) by 20% is really hard to see as a benefit without quantification.
Guess we wait and see.
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"Should go up" is tough to swallow as a benefit. Revenue has to go up a lot.
Revenue does not only have to increase, which I'm sure it will, revenue has to increase *beyond the 20% tax* on our earnings.
If it increases by 15% then it is still a 5% loss in revenue for the PM and that is the concern with the way this payment system of the VMs.
In all fairness I can see the need for tighter regulations on the managed pages but to tax the page manager (who is right now the VM as well of their own profile vertical) by 20% is really hard to see as a benefit without quantification.
Guess we wait and see.
November 15, 2009 12:45 PM
@Buddawiggi, a minor correction here. To make up for a 20% tax, the page income would need to increase 25%, not 20% (from 100, 20% takes you to 80, and you need 20 to get back, which is 25% of 80).
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November 13, 2009 05:54 PM
I'm looking forward to this, though I agree with buddawiggi and others in wanting to make this as fair to all as possible. I am a relative newcomer, only have a few pages, and have been thinking about asking for input on how to make 'em better. Hopefully, this will fit that bill and will help Mahalo in the process. One other concern that I have right now: my initial reaction is that I would love to be a VM. However, it is likely that I would not be selected because I do not yet have the Mahalo experience AND have not spent the necessary hrs/day that it is obviously going to take to do it properly. I expect both of those to resolve in the near future.
However, I am concerned that all of the most profitable VM real estate will be assigned quickly, and that the less profitable outlands are going to be all that are left down the road.
--mm
P.S. Also, I am guessing that you (Mahalo) are going to have some objective way(s) of reviewing the performance of individual VM's. Might that not mean that the discussions about whether the VM is improving a page's performance might be resolved by breaking down that data to the individual page level?
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November 13, 2009 06:06 PM
@doubleminaz,
Don't worry... no matter how it works out in the end Mahalo will make sure it is fair to all. We are just all discussing it. That's one of the great things about Mahalo... we can all give our 2 cents. =)
And the Vertical Managers are being added slowly. This will not be an overnight change. No one would suddenly find every page with a VM unless they had very few pages or concentrate all in one vertical, possibly.
And let me put your other concern to rest. All the best verticals will not be taken right away, for the simple reason that as the VM's do their jobs and add new pages and categories and sub-categories, the verticals grow... and each manager is limited to 3000 pages. Some categories have more than that many now, I believe... so the categories will split, and split again, and more managers will be added to categories as needed.
Just as not all the profitable pages have even been made yet... all categories could not possibly be taken in the near future as new openings will be made as Mahalo grows.
I'll leave your PS to staff. VM's will be doing much more than just helping PM's, though. =) I'm just glad *I* don't have to figure out how to evaluate them! =D
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Don't worry... no matter how it works out in the end Mahalo will make sure it is fair to all. We are just all discussing it. That's one of the great things about Mahalo... we can all give our 2 cents. =)
And the Vertical Managers are being added slowly. This will not be an overnight change. No one would suddenly find every page with a VM unless they had very few pages or concentrate all in one vertical, possibly.
And let me put your other concern to rest. All the best verticals will not be taken right away, for the simple reason that as the VM's do their jobs and add new pages and categories and sub-categories, the verticals grow... and each manager is limited to 3000 pages. Some categories have more than that many now, I believe... so the categories will split, and split again, and more managers will be added to categories as needed.
Just as not all the profitable pages have even been made yet... all categories could not possibly be taken in the near future as new openings will be made as Mahalo grows.
I'll leave your PS to staff. VM's will be doing much more than just helping PM's, though. =) I'm just glad *I* don't have to figure out how to evaluate them! =D
November 14, 2009 05:39 AM
After reading the majority of the comments posted here and considering the pro's and con's of the new system, I will weigh in with my 2 cents. Bare in mind, this is from the perspective of someone in position to be a VM. Overall like many users I am skeptical of this new system. I don't like the idea of page managers losing 20% of page income to have a VM look over it and give tips on how to make it better. I understand Mahalo wants to increase quality and quantity of pages on Mahalo, and this new system may help, but I think page managers will be taking a pay cut in the process.
I question the necessity of VM's. Jason made the argument that we need more than one user contributing to a page. Currently we do have more than one user contributing to each page in the QC process where the QC reviews, edits, sets up the page, categorizes and sets up redirects for each new page. I think this is pretty good in terms of assuring the quality of new pages. It is then the page manager's responsibility to keep it updated.
Another point Jason made is that if this doesn't work out well, we can just switch back. I have a feeling this could be very difficult. Current top page managers will be giving up most of their pages in order to become a VM. These pages will then be claimed by other users. After all this has happened, how can you switch back to how it was?
I also question if VM's will be able to devote enough of their time and effort to each page to make it worth the page managers giving up 20%. With 1000's of pages to look over. Will they be able to increase revenue on each page by more than 20%?
I know the goal is to increase quality of pages, but with a system where VM's will be choosing the highest earning pages which don't need help, the pages with low earnings that do need help will be abandoned by the VM's.
Now I don't mean to be all negative. There are positives to this system too, but each side needs to be considered. Some of the positives would be a more organized system, faster production of good pages, increased quality of current pages, and additional promotion by the VM's. This is good for Mahalo as a whole, I just wish page managers did not have to lose 20% in order for it to happen.
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November 14, 2009 07:19 PM
You make a good point about this change not being so easy to reverse if it doesn't work out too well.
I guess it's reversible from Mahalo's point of view, though individual PMs and VMs may find it hard to get back to where they were before.
Having said that simply tweaking two parameters - how many pages a VM looks after, and the VM revenue share - can probably go a long way in resolving any problems that come up.
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I guess it's reversible from Mahalo's point of view, though individual PMs and VMs may find it hard to get back to where they were before.
Having said that simply tweaking two parameters - how many pages a VM looks after, and the VM revenue share - can probably go a long way in resolving any problems that come up.
November 15, 2009 10:39 PM
@soundboy...I like the new term you've coined above...but I think the 'more correct' one is "bear in mind"...(as in carry in your head) happy Sunday :)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bear+in+mind
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bear+in+mind
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@lon has said if there are issues with a particular manager, you can bring that to the attention of staff. He has also said, though, that they are choosing carefully. They aren't going to allow someone who is brand new to come in and blunder around... nor are they going to allow anyone to just come in and boss around a page manager. This is a partnership. The VM should work WITH the PM to improve overall revenue.
And... (and I see this as maybe even more important) the vertical manager will be working with a huge portion of their main vertical (1000 pages to start with!) so they will affect vertical wide changes... through promotion, adding new sections, sub categories, barnraisings, related links, etc etc etc... which should BY ITSELF affect your pages in a positive way... and that should be worth something to all of us.
And, at the risk of repeating myself too often, how can you say it was the VM who affected your revenue FOR SURE.... unless they just deleted all your content or something? Because advertisers come and go... google rankings change, and income fluctuates for those reasons and others, like seasonal reasons...
I for one would want to work with the other manager, be it a VM or a PM... to make the page better for both of us... do people really think that a VM won't care about increasing the income on a page? I'm seeing more and more comments like this, and I'm a little bit surprised by it.
It is their income too, and by giving them a vested interest in the income of the page, it should increase their desire to see that particular page succeed, at least in my opinion.
I'm not skeptical at all of this change... and I think it fills several needs...
1. Gives another set of eyes for editing purposes... typos, grammar, etc.
2. Gives another person that can advertise
3. Gives another person to find related links and suggest new content for the page
4. Builds out some of these verticals... we are really lacking in some areas
5. Gives a person that can see a bigger picture and how each page falls into that picture
6. Frees up staff to handle other things
7. Frees up some of the previously held pages.... as VM's have to give up pages they are now PM's on (some of these people will probably give up a lot of pages)
8. Creates a new income stream across Mahalo... one more way you can earn
I could go on... but this is getting long. =D
I think I've made my point.
The reason I'm wary about this feature is because I am worried about the people I might have to work with. Now, I am honestly a bit miffed by some of the QC-ers. They make more than half of our income (3.50 MHD for a 5 MHD task). They should be willing to do some little editing before rejecting our task outright because of simple mistakes. I'm a non English speaker. I try hard to submit as best page as I can but I sometimes still make mistakes. If they get paid a lot less than that, I'll concede that I should make the page as perfect as possible.
I hope the VM's are going to be worth my investment.
If this partnership were in the outside business world the increased revenue would need to be documented on paper and proven or the partnership would be dissolved as unprofitable.
There is too much entitlement in this way of thinking.
First we need to remember that **Mahalo** owns the pages... they just share income with us.
@lidyax,
They do not get more that half of "our" income. they get additional income provided by Mahalo for checking our work... and in some cases they do a lot of work to set up the pages. And I am not on the qc team... just as a disclaimer here.
I do, however, value their feedback... because of it I have improved to the point that I manage more pages than anyone who is not former staff. My current total is 454. Some of those I created, some I did through tasks, and some I claimed and improved.
and @buddawiggi,
Yes, we will make a smaller percentage than before. That is true. But "we" are not "giving" them "our" income. Mahalo has decided to "give" us a partner and "give" us 40% to continue to work on the page and "give" the partner 20% to work on the page and the vertical.
But we need to look at the big picture here. By adding all the additional pages the VM's will bring in, through creating tasks, barnraisings, and such... and through the work they will do to interlink the existing pages... and through any advertising they do... it will increase mahalo's authority for that vertical.
If only I could get people to see what that means to EVERYONE and EVERY PAGE here.
Let me say this...
A new product gets added to amazon.com, or a new article to wikipedia... it is SO much more likely to be the first or second entry in a google search... and is likely never to be sandboxed...
What that means to you is this...
For anything we are seen as an authority on... Mahalo can get listed higher in Google than other sites - EVEN IF IT IS A NEWER PAGE. (I"m not yelling... just don't know how to bold here) Just look at the gift card pages... we are becoming an authority and they are starting to rank and get income.
So, anything the VM brings to the table for a vertical will help you in the long run...even if the VM never touches your particular page... even if you have no VM on your particular page. YOU CAN STILL BENEFIT.
So how do we compensate them for THAT?
It has been my experience with Mahalo that most new things they do work. And from what I've seen reading things on the Internet and on here... when something didn't... they changed it or dropped it and went on to bigger and better things.
I think instead of worrying about what we will or even MIGHT lose, we need to focus on how to make it work and what we can do to work together. I think it can make all the difference to success or failure. I for one want this to succeed because i think it fills a need that we have had all along. We don't have enough pages. We don't have the verticals filled out.
To be an authority site, we have to demonstrate authority. That is done through getting the pages done and making them great. We have to work together to do that.
The sad truth is, some of those that think they won't like their VM - won't. It won't even matter who they are because the mind of the PM has already been made up. I hope everyone will give this a fair shot and not let their worries consume their vision.
I'm focusing on the vision. I hope everyone else will too. When you believe in something, you can MAKE it succeed. I'm going to succeed.
I am *not focusing* on what I might lose. I am focusing on what I am giving up for the *possibility* that a VM will improve revenue.
As you stated in 6. above "Frees up staff to handle other things"
I view this as **Mahalo adding staff** not freeing up staff and I am now required to pay these additional staff members with 20% of my earnings.
While I have to be a conformist here as this entire site is not of my making or within my control I do not have to let transition happen without the skepticism I would give any of my business partnerships. I have made and remade many in the real-estate world and all of them were either profitable or dissolved immediately upon the realization of the unprofitably of the venture from either partners point of view.
ok... let's use your example... adding staff.
would it make you feel better if mahalo said something like:
All page managers will now receive 40% on their pages instead of 50% because we are adding staff to help you make more across the board.
=D
but they aren't even doing that. if your page does not have a specific VM, you still get 50%
=)
being a little nervous as to how it will work out is understandable. i just don't want people reading all of this and thinking it is a bad thing when it hasn't even started yet.
i think that we need to go into this with the attitude that it will work because we will make it work and be confident that if anything doesn't work mahalo will change it.
in my opinion it is that simple... but i have always been kind of a positive person. =) I'd rather work that way... makes me feel much better overall.
I am not against the concept or implementation of VM. I am just speaking some reservations, same as @buddawiggi here.
Mahalo does not completely own the pages. We, as the writers, own the copyright, just like other web content sites. Unless we have already signed away our rights, and we haven't signed or checked that kind of boxes here, we still own it.
I do not mind that the QCers get any MHD at all. We need them. I prefer to have all my work QCing than not. I’m just saying that sometimes the QCers can do more.
@smartweb, while I belief you are capable of being a good VM, and I do not mind sharing my profit with you at all. The problem is I cannot control who will VM my page. There is no guarantee that s/he and I will work well together. If we are able to choose our VM, it’ll be better for everyone in the long run.
ETA: by the way, the statement that QCers should do more was also spoken by one of the staff I corresponded with.
I'm not trying to single you out by saying you have a sense of entitlement... only that the way you stated your comment reflects that.
And Mahalo does own the page... it can be taken from you... you do own the content and could ask that it be removed, but you would not have any "right" to keep the page.
And I don't think that anyone who voices a reservation is against the whole system. I just know that a lot of people read these and form opinions without ever piping up to ask a question.
There is a bigger picture that hadn't really been touched on, and I still don't think I've expressed it properly, based on the responses I'm getting.
And while I appreciate the kind words some have said, none of what I have said was designed to put myself in ANY kind of light, great or bad... it was intended to give a sense of what a VM could potentially bring to the table that people are not seeing.
As a page manager myself, I see that I would make less on each page that had a VM initially... however, I also see that overall Mahalo will improve, and THAT will benefit me.
I have a unique perspective though. I've been on the Internet with my own company for more than 8 years. And I've tried a lot of models for getting revenue increased. I've found that sometimes it is better to add something that initially seems like it would take away from the bottom line in order to make that bottom line rise in the long run.
Overall we will be better off for the inclusion of the VM. I truly truly believe this. It will help the entire website... not just individual VM's or even individual pages.
it doesn't sound stupid at all.
but i think there is actually more accountability with this model.
staff will be closely watching the VM's to make sure no authority or responsibility is abused or misused... but think about it...
each page manager will also be watching their VM... a VM can have 3000 pages they oversee... that's 3000 potential PM's with a vested interest to make sure the VM is not overstepping any boundaries.
it is in the VM's best interest that they do a great job and WORK WITH the PM. they have to have a great working relationship. the VM also needs to improve the whole vertical. that's a big job.
so i think we have accountability covered here. the main dispute seems to be that people think they are losing but they can't see the potential gain.
fear of the unknown is not unjustified. i've just been trying to help some of it become known so it is a little less daunting and fearful.
and we get a lot more input here than many places. ultimately, though, this was decided by mahalo and this is the way it will be.
we need to have faith that if it turns out to be unfair, mahalo will change things. this is being put in place to help the PM's make more money, not take away from them.
and ultimately to build mahalo, not punish PM's in some way. building mahalo helps everyone... even those who are note even PM's or VM's... but just like asking and answering questions.
You state~~ "we need to have faith that if it turns out to be unfair, mahalo will change things. this is being put in place to help the PM's make more money, not take away from them."
Where are we supposed to derive this faith from? The PMs are the ones paying the VMs for promotion and editorial suggestions. Why would we want to pay an untested person a set amount of money to implement an untested program of promotion while now living under the gun of our pages being pulled for something that might be the fault of the VM and not the PM?
You said yourself "there is no way to decide what portion was an improvement the VM made or the PM made."
If this is the case then we the PMs, the larger stake holder in the page, should be the ones determining the course of action and the deciders of the validity of the VMs performance. The fate of a VM should only lie in the increased performance of the page and nothing else, a strictly commission basis.
However, as I stated in another comment above, the exact implementation currently presented by Mahalo seems to me over-generous to the VM at the expense of the PM. Instead, I think Mahalo should cap the M$s a VM can derive from any single page. That way, if a page is doing very well before the VM, and doesn't need the VM, the drain of PM revenue will be minimal. If the page is not performing well, the 20% will not hit the cap until the page is doing well. Also as pointed out above, the number of pages a VM is given is so huge that the VM will only be able to spend a few minutes per month on any given page (on average)! If someone is managing a game page (which I do not, so no self-serving interest here) and is making M$6000/year without any VM thank you very much, should that person be required to pay M$1200/year for the unneeded and unasked-for VM?! No! They should pay a minimal amount (say M$10/month or M$20/month) for just having another pair of eyes looking to see if any tweaks might be helpful.
One other concern is time? If a VM has say 1000 pages to manage 40 hr work week = 2400 minutes
divide by 1000 pages = 2.4 minutes a page.
This is a rough estimate but how can anyone raise the revenue with only 2.4 min a page?
Say they have 2000 pages to manage in one month's time 160 work hours by 60 min per hour = 9600 min now divide by 2000 pages comes out to 4.8 min a page. Can they actually review, find new links add video and improve every page in a 4-5 min period? I know I could not.
my faith is that i've seen mahalo come through before and i believe they are honest and trustworthy.
all will work out in the end... though there may be a few bumps in the road.
i'm beginning to regret even talking in this thread... O,o
What kills me is the shear length of this page.
I hope in the future we can have mutiple pages SOMEHOW for questions.
Even with a massive amount of ram my system has crashed more than once trying to load some of the pages on mahalo answers.
I have to agree with @buddawiggi here, I'm still skeptical about this 20% revenue split for vertical managers. I think this number should be revisited as well as the amount given to page managers in the first place.
No offense to all of you who believe the status quo should remain the same.
Kind Regards,
@XDS