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The situation would need to be addressed very very carefully and on a per circumstance bases.
I would like to think that if someone i knew (A friend a colleague or family member) was contemplating suicide, that someone would step in and take proper precautions to help the individual on a individual bases.
Since there is no mechanism for setting off a red flag to this on MAHALO other than the "Report" option.
(Which I also believe should be further detailed)
To alert the owners and full time staff of MAHALO.
These situations should be dealt with very delicately and the owners of this site should be informed via there preferred contact method as soon as possible.
I pray we never run into a situation like this but if we ever did I also pray that we can understand the circumstance to its fullest extent factually, rationally, calmly and without prejudice.
Source(s):
My Entorhinal cortex.
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To answer your question(s):
1. I would likely try and find out where the person was from, notify Mahalo in order to get IP records and assist them in finding a location for which to notify police.
2. Read above.
3. Whether the poster succeeds or not, the account should be investigated and maintained, but disabled. Should authorities need access to information on the account (posting history, etc.), the information should be there as to at least give some semblance of "why" or "when" something could have gone wrong.
Just my opinion.
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there has been cases on myspace.
Source(s):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/us/16myspace.html
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/26/Southpinellas/Dead_soldier_posts_fa.shtml
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It's often a cry for attention and that shouldn't be rewarded by giving the poster attention publicly. Instead it should be handled privately by someone who actually has some training in the matter.
If Mahalo doesn't have someone who is trained in dealing with suicidal ideations then it should be forwarded onto someone who contracts for Mahalo to deal with suicidal ideations.
It's clearly not the position of people answering to deal with these situations, it's for someone trained to deal with.
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The poster should get good answers to his question, with sources. I am sure there are plenty of opinions both pro and con that could be backed up by legitimate sources.
I'd stay clear of questions like that myself unless it was technical, such as "I've been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Which, if any, state or country am I allowed to commit suicide in?"
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2. A suicide prevention professional or volunteer must be notified immediately.
3. An automated system could send an email to an organization like www.samaritans.org and/or phone a group like 1 800 SUICIDE on behalf of the individual. There are numerous suicide prevention organizations. One or more should partner with Mahalo Answers.
4. The question MUST not be deleted. I believe that any such action by Mahalo should be illegal. Having such a question deleted could be extremely invalidating and lead directly to the suicide or other self-destructive behavior.
5. There should be a section of the website for these types of questions regarding depression or suicide. There should be a way for members to flag questions to go there. This way people that have those types of thoughts will know that they are not alone and have a place where their pleas for help will be recorded and Mahalo users can at minimum let them know that their existence matters and preferably get enough information about the individuals so that professionals can contact them.
6. Any encouragement for the individual to kill him/herself or taunting is criminal (or should be, if it is not already so by the letter of the law) and should have legal consequences. Mahalo should immediately ban individuals doing such a thing and assist authorities by presenting them with any identifying information.
7. If Mahalo staff, investors or users are concerned that Mahalo Answers might become a "target" for suicidal people if it refuses to ignore pleas for help or has an effective strategy for dealing with them, ask yourself this question: "What would you prefer Mahalo do if your son or daughter posts a suicidal question on Mahalo Answers? A) ignore him/her, B) encourage him/her to kill his/herself, C) delete the question, D) find a way to get your son or daughter help immediately."
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We do know the following:
1. Obviously we are not going to become a place for discussions of suicide methods--those questions should be reported and we will take them down (click the report button).
2. Obviously we should all direct folks to a suicide hotline/resource if they are looking for help.
3. The Answers community is not qualified, and a Q&A service is not the place, to deal with such issues. Professionals should handle these issues.
We
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Answered Question
M$1
December 26, 2008 07:48 PM
What do you think would/should happen if someone posted a question that suggested suicide?
I'm not sure you're familiar with some of the many Deathcasting incidents that have occurred such as the case with Abraham K Biggs. However, I recently had a friend of a friend's boyfriend kill himself on Christmas Eve, and I wondered what would happen if someone posted a comment that led you to believe they might kill themselves. Something such as "Why shouldn't I commit suicide?"
My question is three fold:
1. What would you do?
2. What do you think Mahalo should do?
3. What should happen to the poster?
My question is three fold:
1. What would you do?
2. What do you think Mahalo should do?
3. What should happen to the poster?
Interesting Question?
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Best Answer Chosen by Asker
| December 27, 2008 03:55 AM |
I would like to think that if someone i knew (A friend a colleague or family member) was contemplating suicide, that someone would step in and take proper precautions to help the individual on a individual bases.
Since there is no mechanism for setting off a red flag to this on MAHALO other than the "Report" option.
(Which I also believe should be further detailed)
To alert the owners and full time staff of MAHALO.
These situations should be dealt with very delicately and the owners of this site should be informed via there preferred contact method as soon as possible.
I pray we never run into a situation like this but if we ever did I also pray that we can understand the circumstance to its fullest extent factually, rationally, calmly and without prejudice.
Source(s):
My Entorhinal cortex.
| Asker's Rating: |
• This was a difficult choice. However, I chose xds not because I thought he had the "right" answer but because he provided lots of good comments without making any sort of personal attacks.
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Other Answers (11)
December 27, 2008 12:52 AM
Anybody should have the good sense to care. Specially because depressed people have less oxygen coming to their brain and they could do something they do not really mean to. I guess maholo readers have enough sense to care, and they would: nobody in this community is going to shout "jump!"
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December 27, 2008 01:15 AM
That is just it: how do we know it is a joke? A bad joke like that is not good sign, is it?
They say people who commit suicide do not talk about it, but what does it cost you to give a few kind words just in case?
Life is so extraordinary, I would not mind living 200 years. I wish everybody would feel the same.
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They say people who commit suicide do not talk about it, but what does it cost you to give a few kind words just in case?
Life is so extraordinary, I would not mind living 200 years. I wish everybody would feel the same.
December 27, 2008 02:46 AM
It does not matter if they cry wolf. What do you have to lose? Think of it this way: it is not always the nicest people who commit suicide: they can be very aggravating because they cannot find a good equilibrium. If people just want attention, what do you lose by giving them a little bit. It may help, it may not, it may be that somebody will take you for a fool, so what? You are above it, because you will have done the right thing. My dad used to say he would rather help ten scam artists than refuse to help somebody in real need.
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December 27, 2008 01:00 AM
Well the unfortunate problem with suggested suicide is that people DO have tendency to ignore pleas for help. If a person posted a question that suggested suicide, I believe that you would eventually get a mixed bag of "dos" and "don'ts" simply because we do not all know the inner selves of the members of the site. To answer your question(s):
1. I would likely try and find out where the person was from, notify Mahalo in order to get IP records and assist them in finding a location for which to notify police.
2. Read above.
3. Whether the poster succeeds or not, the account should be investigated and maintained, but disabled. Should authorities need access to information on the account (posting history, etc.), the information should be there as to at least give some semblance of "why" or "when" something could have gone wrong.
Just my opinion.
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December 27, 2008 01:00 AM
I would notify the local authorities and inform them of what I have read online. Then notify Mahalo, and ask them to attempt to locate exactly where this person has logged on from, and forward all info to the police, so they can help the person. The post should be kept, just untill the police have arrived and calmed the situation, and attained all theyre evidence, then take the post down.... there has been cases on myspace.
Source(s):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/us/16myspace.html
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/26/Southpinellas/Dead_soldier_posts_fa.shtml
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December 27, 2008 01:06 AM
Don't inform the police. The police will go in with their guns drawn, risking them killing the person in question, and insuring the person will be locked up in some facility against their will.
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December 27, 2008 02:08 AM
I completely agree with this answer. We have an obligation to act even if later someone says "sucker!" That's called, biting the bullet of civilization.
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December 27, 2008 01:33 AM
I think the best thing that can be done is that the post be deleted and a message privately be sent to the poster giving information on where to go for help. Then it should be forwarded onto someone who is trained to help. It's often a cry for attention and that shouldn't be rewarded by giving the poster attention publicly. Instead it should be handled privately by someone who actually has some training in the matter.
If Mahalo doesn't have someone who is trained in dealing with suicidal ideations then it should be forwarded onto someone who contracts for Mahalo to deal with suicidal ideations.
It's clearly not the position of people answering to deal with these situations, it's for someone trained to deal with.
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December 27, 2008 03:33 AM
I think it is similar to a medical case. For a therapist to safely help someone they would need far more information than they could gather from a single post. It could even be dangerouns because the asker could mistake the advice for informed profession advice, when the advice giver was not really informed.
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December 27, 2008 01:35 AM
I don't see what Mahalo could do directly, as it does not collect personal information about its posters. Indirectly, I suppose it could make sure an answer referring to a reputable suicide hotline was posted. It could even censor "Yeah Jump!" type answers. The poster should get good answers to his question, with sources. I am sure there are plenty of opinions both pro and con that could be backed up by legitimate sources.
I'd stay clear of questions like that myself unless it was technical, such as "I've been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Which, if any, state or country am I allowed to commit suicide in?"
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December 27, 2008 08:08 AM
Unfortunately with the widespread use of WiFi which can now reach up to 2 miles away with commercial equipment it is becoming increasingly harder to track people's location based on there IP address and other ISP identification breadcrumbs.
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December 27, 2008 01:44 PM
People answering that an IP address is enough are thinking about major crime investigations. It would take a court order to the ISP to even try, and court orders take time and need solid evidence. Even then, the ISP has to search through its logs, because they do not issue permanent IP addresses unless you pay more. On top of that there are the problems of wireless access, whether normal or at a cafe or just using some neighbor's network. And some people spoof, making tracking even harder. Now if you commit some serious crime, the government can track your IP down eventually. But as for a possible suicide clue in an online posting, thinking in terms of a rapid response is just not a real option..
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December 27, 2008 08:06 PM
dark_lard Not so simple with a wireless connection, not so simple at all, with people piggy backing off everyone else's WiFi AP's it makes it even more difficult to track.
dark_lard I don't know where your getting this ISP can easily track a person down bit, unless you are living in 1998 with 802.11b or CAN Networks.
Not by a longshot.
Not to mention wep and wpa vulnerabilities no one is safe anymore. The ISP would need to launch a giant investigation and by the time they triangulated the persons position they could already be blind burned or dying.
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dark_lard I don't know where your getting this ISP can easily track a person down bit, unless you are living in 1998 with 802.11b or CAN Networks.
Not by a longshot.
Not to mention wep and wpa vulnerabilities no one is safe anymore. The ISP would need to launch a giant investigation and by the time they triangulated the persons position they could already be blind burned or dying.
December 27, 2008 02:41 AM
1. Assume all such questions are not hoaxes and are serious pleas for help. 2. A suicide prevention professional or volunteer must be notified immediately.
3. An automated system could send an email to an organization like www.samaritans.org and/or phone a group like 1 800 SUICIDE on behalf of the individual. There are numerous suicide prevention organizations. One or more should partner with Mahalo Answers.
4. The question MUST not be deleted. I believe that any such action by Mahalo should be illegal. Having such a question deleted could be extremely invalidating and lead directly to the suicide or other self-destructive behavior.
5. There should be a section of the website for these types of questions regarding depression or suicide. There should be a way for members to flag questions to go there. This way people that have those types of thoughts will know that they are not alone and have a place where their pleas for help will be recorded and Mahalo users can at minimum let them know that their existence matters and preferably get enough information about the individuals so that professionals can contact them.
6. Any encouragement for the individual to kill him/herself or taunting is criminal (or should be, if it is not already so by the letter of the law) and should have legal consequences. Mahalo should immediately ban individuals doing such a thing and assist authorities by presenting them with any identifying information.
7. If Mahalo staff, investors or users are concerned that Mahalo Answers might become a "target" for suicidal people if it refuses to ignore pleas for help or has an effective strategy for dealing with them, ask yourself this question: "What would you prefer Mahalo do if your son or daughter posts a suicidal question on Mahalo Answers? A) ignore him/her, B) encourage him/her to kill his/herself, C) delete the question, D) find a way to get your son or daughter help immediately."
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December 27, 2008 03:24 AM
Well, I actually believe at this moment that even though you have mentioned a disagreement I might still have a fair chance of being selected as best answer. Of course, that's not important and so I will not hesitate to be emphatically contrary here.
You are _extraordinarily wrong_ to think that your children (or anyone else) should not even consider looking for help online or that we should take into account some technical interpretation of Mahalo's existing terms of service here. There is nothing about an online format that precludes it from being a vehicle for this type of desperate communication. In fact, it may be better suited than other means of communication since it might make it easier for people to ask for help. I do not know what your particular hang-up is here and frankly am not even interested in hearing it. I will email my response directly to Mahalo Answers to make sure that my suggestion is heard. (Although, sadly, I have a feeling that they will take the easy way out and agree with you).
As I said, I actually believe that it should be a legal responsibility of sites like Mahalo Answers to accept such questions and encourage users to get contact information from the individuals to provide them with help.
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You are _extraordinarily wrong_ to think that your children (or anyone else) should not even consider looking for help online or that we should take into account some technical interpretation of Mahalo's existing terms of service here. There is nothing about an online format that precludes it from being a vehicle for this type of desperate communication. In fact, it may be better suited than other means of communication since it might make it easier for people to ask for help. I do not know what your particular hang-up is here and frankly am not even interested in hearing it. I will email my response directly to Mahalo Answers to make sure that my suggestion is heard. (Although, sadly, I have a feeling that they will take the easy way out and agree with you).
As I said, I actually believe that it should be a legal responsibility of sites like Mahalo Answers to accept such questions and encourage users to get contact information from the individuals to provide them with help.
December 27, 2008 03:36 AM
This is really great discussion you guys have started here. While there is no official policy from Mahalo on what to do in this situation, as a Mahalo employee and Answers curator I would instinctively do the following:
1) Send the question/statement to a suicide prevention hotline or organization immediately. That would be the top priority and the most important action any of us could take.
2) I agree with ilaksh that the question should not automatically be taken down. People do frequently research suicide online, and the action of posting a question is most certainly a call for help that should not be ignored.
I wish I could say more about what actions should be taken, but I don't wish to commit Mahalo to any course of action without the appropriate discussion taking place among senior members of staff.
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1) Send the question/statement to a suicide prevention hotline or organization immediately. That would be the top priority and the most important action any of us could take.
2) I agree with ilaksh that the question should not automatically be taken down. People do frequently research suicide online, and the action of posting a question is most certainly a call for help that should not be ignored.
I wish I could say more about what actions should be taken, but I don't wish to commit Mahalo to any course of action without the appropriate discussion taking place among senior members of staff.
December 27, 2008 08:46 AM
- Fact Refuted
"Any encouragement for the individual to kill him/herself or taunting is criminal (or should be, if it is not already so by the letter of the law) and should have legal consequences. Mahalo should immediately ban individuals doing such a thing and assist authorities by presenting them with any identifying information."
I wish I could find the study on this, but that is about the worst thing that can happen. This would essentially encourage those who have been taunted or ridiculed to consider suicide as an ultimate revenge.
Often people are driven to consider suicide because of social pressures and bad social interactions. They may feel that they are being treated unfairly by the world and that if they could get revenge on everyone who taunted them or egged them on to commit suicide by actually doing it, that would set a very very bad president.
Don't get me wrong, I think that encouraging behavior like that is awful but having laws saying that if you encourage someone to commit suicide and they do it, then you get put in jail would be hugely counter productive.
The easy answer to this is to say that its illegal to egg someone on regardless of the outcome, but the enforcing of a law like that is hard. What if someone was just joking? What if it was interpreted wrong by someone? Most laws require some negative consequence to be enforced.
It's a difficult question, but the simple answer of making it illegal to encourage is not as simple as it seems.
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I wish I could find the study on this, but that is about the worst thing that can happen. This would essentially encourage those who have been taunted or ridiculed to consider suicide as an ultimate revenge.
Often people are driven to consider suicide because of social pressures and bad social interactions. They may feel that they are being treated unfairly by the world and that if they could get revenge on everyone who taunted them or egged them on to commit suicide by actually doing it, that would set a very very bad president.
Don't get me wrong, I think that encouraging behavior like that is awful but having laws saying that if you encourage someone to commit suicide and they do it, then you get put in jail would be hugely counter productive.
The easy answer to this is to say that its illegal to egg someone on regardless of the outcome, but the enforcing of a law like that is hard. What if someone was just joking? What if it was interpreted wrong by someone? Most laws require some negative consequence to be enforced.
It's a difficult question, but the simple answer of making it illegal to encourage is not as simple as it seems.
December 27, 2008 09:28 AM
What I said was that taunts or suicide encouragement in response to a suicidal question should be punished. I did not specify only taunts or encouragement that precede an actual suicide.
I think that making that policy clear and tracking down anyone that violates it and punishing them regardless of whether the suicidal individual takes any action will make it less likely to occur.
What do you suggest? Mahalo should ignore such behavior? Or that they should withhold the user's IP address or other information? Because allowing them to get away with it somehow creates more positive outcomes in your psychological scenario? You think that its ok to let kids or adults joke about that? For me, this type of emotional abuse in this situation is at least in a similar category as torturing animals. Only, they are not animals, they are people.
If a suicidal individual sees encouragement on the screen that will certainly influence his actions.
Please do produce some studies that support your theory.
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I think that making that policy clear and tracking down anyone that violates it and punishing them regardless of whether the suicidal individual takes any action will make it less likely to occur.
What do you suggest? Mahalo should ignore such behavior? Or that they should withhold the user's IP address or other information? Because allowing them to get away with it somehow creates more positive outcomes in your psychological scenario? You think that its ok to let kids or adults joke about that? For me, this type of emotional abuse in this situation is at least in a similar category as torturing animals. Only, they are not animals, they are people.
If a suicidal individual sees encouragement on the screen that will certainly influence his actions.
Please do produce some studies that support your theory.
December 27, 2008 07:51 PM
Well, at the very least, here is a study that examines some 200 other studies to look at the copycat effect:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14204639
This is a very clear reason to delete all posts immediately. The more public suicide stories are the more likely it is to have copycat effects. Essentially if a suicide attempt is made public, it will encourage others to consider suicide as well.
Still looking for the study on encouragement of suicide...
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http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14204639
This is a very clear reason to delete all posts immediately. The more public suicide stories are the more likely it is to have copycat effects. Essentially if a suicide attempt is made public, it will encourage others to consider suicide as well.
Still looking for the study on encouragement of suicide...
December 27, 2008 05:59 PM
We're looking into the best practices around this topic and combined with your feedback we will come up with a policy in the coming weeks. We do know the following:
1. Obviously we are not going to become a place for discussions of suicide methods--those questions should be reported and we will take them down (click the report button).
2. Obviously we should all direct folks to a suicide hotline/resource if they are looking for help.
3. The Answers community is not qualified, and a Q&A service is not the place, to deal with such issues. Professionals should handle these issues.
We
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December 27, 2008 08:28 PM
A suicide prevention person can't help him if he hasn't told us who he is or you haven't tried to find out.
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December 27, 2008 09:27 PM
@ilaksh
Perhaps this isn't a good forum to be discussing a personal matter, you might be better off messaging the mahalo staff personally using the private question mechanism on this site.
This discussion is related to the MAHALO community as a whole.
Not that I don't sympathize with your situation, which i totally do.
Maybe i missed the point of your comment, but airing out the dirty laundry here about a *specific user* isn't going to help them OR you any either.
Report
Perhaps this isn't a good forum to be discussing a personal matter, you might be better off messaging the mahalo staff personally using the private question mechanism on this site.
This discussion is related to the MAHALO community as a whole.
Not that I don't sympathize with your situation, which i totally do.
Maybe i missed the point of your comment, but airing out the dirty laundry here about a *specific user* isn't going to help them OR you any either.
December 28, 2008 12:47 AM
It is not Mahalo's policy to delete direct questions on these matters, and if any direct questions were removed from the system, it was accidental as part of a larger effort to keep this conversations from being seen by the general public.
It is part of Mahalo's developing policy to make efforts behind-the-scenes to contact proper authorities in these sorts of situations so that anyone in peril will get the help that they need. However, it is of the utmost importance that we take such efforts and discussions off-line, to prevent all manner of unfortunate side effects. Moving forward, if anyone sees a thread they believe indicates that someone is in any sort of immediate danger, they should report the threat quickly to Mahalo so that we can delete the post and alert the necessary professionals.
Report
It is part of Mahalo's developing policy to make efforts behind-the-scenes to contact proper authorities in these sorts of situations so that anyone in peril will get the help that they need. However, it is of the utmost importance that we take such efforts and discussions off-line, to prevent all manner of unfortunate side effects. Moving forward, if anyone sees a thread they believe indicates that someone is in any sort of immediate danger, they should report the threat quickly to Mahalo so that we can delete the post and alert the necessary professionals.
December 28, 2008 01:02 AM
No one has been or will be alerted. This case proves it. There is no reason to completely delete posts like this besides the fact that it disturbs you. When someone reports a post like that and it is deleted, here is what has happened:
-- A news report is going on downtown. A suicidal person sees this and decides to walk out on the ledge of a six story building that happens to be in the frame. (This is nkechismith posting a plea for help in a public place like Mahalo).
-- Someone notices and points out whats going behind the reporter. They stop rolling and phone the executive producer. (Someone presses Report.)
-- The producer tells them 'Don't worry about it, our reporters aren't qualified to deal with suicide, just move the reporter so the jumper isn't in the frame.' (Calcanis' post above).
-- Everyone goes about their day.
Now, we could have tried to talk the guy down or at least notified the authorities instead of just turning our camera (deleting posts). Far as I can tell no such thing has occurred.
Also, one other thing: he wasn't just going to jump or something. He was planning on using poison gas. So if he could easily kill his neighbors in the process.
Report
-- A news report is going on downtown. A suicidal person sees this and decides to walk out on the ledge of a six story building that happens to be in the frame. (This is nkechismith posting a plea for help in a public place like Mahalo).
-- Someone notices and points out whats going behind the reporter. They stop rolling and phone the executive producer. (Someone presses Report.)
-- The producer tells them 'Don't worry about it, our reporters aren't qualified to deal with suicide, just move the reporter so the jumper isn't in the frame.' (Calcanis' post above).
-- Everyone goes about their day.
Now, we could have tried to talk the guy down or at least notified the authorities instead of just turning our camera (deleting posts). Far as I can tell no such thing has occurred.
Also, one other thing: he wasn't just going to jump or something. He was planning on using poison gas. So if he could easily kill his neighbors in the process.
December 28, 2008 04:37 AM
As far as poison gas goes, this is all of our business because we do not know who or where it is and it could be a threat to any of us. Public safety is everyone's concern even if you don't care about a single individual. As far as this specific case being discussed in this thread, its the most relevant thing to the thread.
Hiding something like this by deleting posts is unethical and should be illegal because he stated that he wanted to use poison gas which is a public threat. I think that people should be able to recognize by this point that we cannot and should not rely on "authorities" to keep us safe just because they are informed of threats.
Report
Hiding something like this by deleting posts is unethical and should be illegal because he stated that he wanted to use poison gas which is a public threat. I think that people should be able to recognize by this point that we cannot and should not rely on "authorities" to keep us safe just because they are informed of threats.
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I still think there should be a section on the site where these questions can be placed (or moved to). This type of Q&A thing has a spectrum from purely seeking answers to a particular problem to generally looking for human contact, with the questioner of course usually looking for contact in the context of his current frame of consciousness. I think that suicidal questions and answers are definitely in that spectrum, although on the extreme end, and they should be included because they are certainly as important as any other (they're more important in a way).
Or very little for that matter. And that is unfortunate.
Another thing that bothers me is that the curriculum taught in most countries on basic self discipline issues is based on sigmund freud and john howard.
And other people that have been dead now for quite a while.
I find these theories to be so ass backwards its not funny.
One theory is that pleasure can exist without a equal part of pain.
These theories IMHO are ludicrous,.... i know i won't be sending my kids to public school.
Just basically allot of bad advice and i feel bad for people that have to sit there and listen to this advice.
Anyways..
The very best thing you can do to combat the issue of this magnitude is to have a clear understanding of it, let the person involved know they are not alone, and make sure the people around you do as well.