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M$1.45 August 06, 2009 05:11 PM

Under what circumstances is a redirect appropriate and fair?

If you create a page using a correct proper name, and someone else follows with a page using a different (incorrect or mispelled) version of the same proper name, is it appropriate and fair to request a redirect? And, yes, it is a matter of revenue. My page is getting few hits, while the misnamed page is making substantial income. Moreover, my page was meant to be a supplement to a page I was already managing. I have emailed contact@mahalo, but have got no response. What does the Mahalo community think of this issue?
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Interesting: robbrown M$0.05, soundboy M$0.05, brian san M$0.25, jasoncalacanis M$0.10

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lon lon
 
August 06, 2009 11:01 PM
There are several issues being touched on here.

Shinju, I'm afraid it's hard to comment on your particular page without more specifics. If you want to get in touch with me privately and let me know what page you have and which incorrectly-spelled page you feel is stealing your thunder, please do let me know and I'll look at both pages and make a judgment call.

As for the larger issue of how pages are organized within Mahalo, there has always been a bit of tension between the "human-powered" part and the "search engine" part. Basically, people want to build pages about all kinds of different variations on terms, and we're largely okay with that because we want a lot of different pages, and we want people to get involved with building pages and not get frustrated by having them deleted all the time.

Having said that, we will get rid of pages that are misleading or confusing, or that are TOO similar to pages that we already have. @robbrown's suggestion to just let individuals control whole topics is problematic for a few reasons...mainly that we would only get one chance of ranking well and getting traffic for a given topic, and that it would force those of us who moderate and control the system to become a bit more gestapo-like in how we control what gets built and what doesn't.

We figure what we have now is sort of a compromise in the middle. Anyone can build any page they want, but if we really think it's going to confuse our audience or make for a bad user experience, then we get rid of the offending page.

(And by the way, @jkepler, the Obama Joker Poster traffic is coming from Bing, not Google, where we rank #3 at present for the term.)

Having said all of that, we are constantly looking for ways to improve our site search (and believe me...it is WAY better now than it was back in '07 when we launched), so keep sending in feedback. It's very appreciated.
Asker's Rating:
• Thanks, Lon, for your thoughtful response on this issue and for your timely assistance.

Mahalo,
Shin


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August 06, 2009 11:26 PM
Also, it's always best to do a search for "SEARCHTERM site:mahalo.com" on google to see if we already have a page on that subject to avoid issues.

This problem will also solve itself over the next year as we complete most major pages. Also, at some point we will have a "request redirect" feature where you will request certain redirect and we will consider those (i.e. you won't have to ask Lon).

Finally, the days of freely claiming pages will probably end in the next couple of months. At that point folks will either a) claim a page in task or b) request to claim a page and then wait for approval. this will solve a LOT of problems.

rock on!

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August 07, 2009 12:44 AM
"@robbrown's suggestion to just let individuals control whole topics is problematic"

I think that you guys are spot on here. I don't think think that an individual should control an entire category or vertical... I may have mis-spoke if that's how the idea was interpreted. I mean an entire page. For example, I think that my page on "How to install laptop ram" is pretty comprehensive. If someone comes along and makes a page called "How to install DDR laptop ram", I'm going to be bothered. Although in this example, I know that the search volume is so low that I wouldn't care... but I digress ;)

"request to claim a page and then wait for approval. this will solve a LOT of problems."

This sounds a little "gestapo" to me. Not that it matters, but I think that there does need to be careful management of the index. It's the collection of all of these pages that will someday make Mahalo very attractive and hopefully powerful. If not maintained with clear direction, things might get a little messy.

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August 06, 2009 05:18 PM
I know you don't want to go into specifics, but it would be helpful here.
It seems to me that there shouldn't even be a page with an 'incorrect' or misspelled name out there. There should not be two pages on the same subject. The misspelling should not even be a managed page. That makes no sense.

But I don't have quite enough information to say one way or another because 1. I'm not a Mahalo employee and 2. I don't know the details. And maybe there is a valid reason to have two pages on the same topic. I don't know.

How long ago did you e-mail mahalo? I'd e-mail again if it's been over a day.

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August 06, 2009 07:57 PM
I agree that there should only be one page on a subject. Logistically, however, robbrown brings up a good point about the limitations of the system (see answer below). I don't mind so much that the page was created, because I believe the person was honest in his understanding.

What I would like to see is a process for resolving these issues when page managers notice similar pages.

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August 06, 2009 06:15 PM
I'm a bit confused with this whole "redirect" thing thing too.

Mahalo is a human powered search engine. Folks compose pages with comprehensive and accurate information. Sounds great. But redirects and the way that they're currently being used is a throwback to bot powered SERP's and are a major downfall.

It's possible for me to think of a small change to the title of any page. The leader board reports that Obama Joker Poster is currently the highest earning page. Redirects have been setup. However, there's nothing stopping me from creating Obama Joker Photo right now.

This adds a frustrating layer of "gaming" and I think really hurts the user experience here.

If I search Mahalo for "Obama Joker Photo", the results don't mention Mahalo's Obama Joker Poster page at all:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/3795145851_b1eb094c4c_o.jpg

This means that unless someone comes to Mahalo and types in the exact page title or one of the redirects that have been setup, they won't see the page. It gets worse when we think about page creation... if I do a Mahalo search for the topic of a page make sure that I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, it again doesn't mention anything about similar pages. I'm left to use Google's site specific search and hope that the page is indexed by them.

I understand that categorizing similar pages is technically very difficult to do automatically. Google's search engine was founded on this logic. However, this limitation renders the current Mahalo search useless. There is no way that a page manager will ever create an adequate number of redirects. Worse than that, people who use the Mahalo search functionality are left with only content pulls from other websites.

I think that it would be a lot better if 1 (and only one) page manager was responsible for any single topic.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that the Mahalo search engine is currently inadequate. Mahalo relies on the inedexing, categorization, ranking and importantly traffic of other search such as Google. I personally have a very tough time doing any sort of research using the Mahalo SE. I can only imagine how someone new to the system must feel.

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August 06, 2009 08:32 PM
Rob: Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I agree with your discussion about the Mahalo's limitations. I also searched for "Obama Joker Photo" to understand what you were talking about. The exercise reconfirmed my belief that Mahalo needs some sort of autocorrect function that offers the most popular search terms, as do Google and Y! This would give potential page managers clues about what pages have already been created. If members then inform Mahalo about possible conflicts, such information may also provide clues, to existing page managers, about essential information that may be missing from their pages.

I think that a main challenge in the Mahalo community is to maintain respect for one another's effort while getting the job done.

I appreciate the dialogue on this and other such issues.

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August 06, 2009 09:42 PM
The term "Obama Joker Poster" on Google brings up the page as the 30th result. That's not good at all - meaning that the traffic is likely coming from somewhere else. (BTW, I'm going to guess Jason's Posterous page must account for at least some of it.)

If someone were to register the Obama Joker Photo page right now and fill it with good content, I'd wager that it wouldn't make much money because the same people and websites aren't linking to it. Links from important sources are what counts.

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August 10, 2009 01:56 PM
rob... i have a different take on the whole redirect issue.

i've moved my comment to be a separate answer in the interests of more people seeing it since the question is already closed...

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August 06, 2009 09:25 PM
There are a lot of good issues being brought up in this thread. I agree that if there is a misspelled title that it should redirect to the appropriate title.

I also agree about the Mahalo search function not being adequate for finding similar pages. Is there some way Mahalo can use the google related pages search? That method seems to work better. I know right now when you seach Mahalo for a topic, if you wait, it sometimes brings up related pages, but this is not always reliable.

Another important issue is small variations of topics and weather they should be separate pages or redirected to one page. I think that once a person has claimed a topic, they should get the similar redirects. It's true that separate pages will pull in more searches and make more money overall, but it doesn't really seem fair to the person who claimed the topic 1st.

Mahalo is still a new system and I don't really know the answer, but that's why it is good to have these kinds of discussions.

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August 06, 2009 10:22 PM
"It's true that separate pages will pull in more searches and make more money overall"

I think that this is touching on what I think is the underlying issue here, Soundboy.

Mahalo is different because it is creating result pages that are made by humans. From what I understand, the competitive advantage of Mahalo as a Search Engine is that these pages are a definitive and factually correct without spam. The goal here seems to be to create results that give users a complete view of a particular topic with "related links" and topics to associated information.

This is easy in the controlled environment that existed before Mahalo 2.0. Today, with hundreds of people creating and maintaining pages, I wonder how "messy" the index is quickly becoming with pages that are created to dilute and direct the revenue.

I don't presume to know enough about the system to hash out the processes that will form a solution. But I'd put this issue right up there with the shockingly divergent page statistics.

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August 07, 2009 01:21 PM
If Mahalo is looking to be a reference source, like Wikipedia-- then one page per topic-- makes sense.

If Mahalo wants to maximize ad revenue - then one page per search term may make sense eHow even permits multiple pages on the same search term, allowing the "cream" to rise to the top. If you search How to make chicken pot pie on Google, eHow winds up with the top two results, and an expand box to "see more results on eHow".

I could see Mahalo moving towards a hybrid model-- with one page per topic on reference terms, such as "General Motors" with "GM" as a redirect, but multiple terms such as "Fertilizer Coupons" "Fertilizer Deals" and "Fertilizer" Discounts" on marketing topics.


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August 10, 2009 01:58 PM
this is how it has been suggested by staff in the mahalo tutorials where deals and coupons bring in different traffic.

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August 10, 2009 02:01 PM
when i first found mahalo i thought it was a lot like wikipedia-- users edit pages and put articles up about topics, but there were other outgoing links and things added...

as i got more involved i realized that mahalo is actually a search engine, that just has articles on the topics and pages that real humans make and edit.

there is a huge difference between the two.

if 1000 people search on "Obama Joker Poster" and 950 search on "Obama Joker Photo" and we use a redirect to make the photo term point to the poster page, the only ones looking for the photo that will make it to the poster page are those visitors to mahalo that type it into the mahalo search.

we lose any portion of the photo search engine traffic that might have been caught by the photo page if it was separate. by doing separate---and DIFFERENT-- pages for the two terms, we can potentially rank for both terms and bring in 1950 visitors.

further, by linking the two pages together as relevant pages, google and other search engines will begin to see mahalo as an authority on the subject, and the rank can rise even further.

so, i really don't think that any redirects should be done unless it is like book and books, where one is the plural of the other. most of the time search engines make no distinction here, but i advocate either making a standard where one tense either always redirects into the other, or the tense that gets the biggest search volume is the page name, just to catch traffic from those search engines that do differentiate.

let me give you a real example from mahalo: automobiles and cars

currently there is a page on automobiles but not cars. cars redirects to automobiles. this makes perfect sense if you are wikipedia, but not as a search engine.

let me explain my thinking here...

using a breakdown of wordtracker's search results, the term automobile gets 2023 searches a day across the search engines, and automobiles gets 531. makes perfect sense to redirect the plural to the singular

however, when you type in "car" the results are quite amazing. the term cars gets a whopping 45,746 average searches EVERY SINGLE DAY and car gets14,443. makes sense to redirect car to cars to me because they are not different enough to have different pages, most search engines won't differentiate, but the plural gets more searches so we might catch a bit of extra traffic from any that do.

now... by making cars and car redirect to automobiles, we have potentially lost being ranked anywhere near the top for any search engine for those terms, so we are potentially losing over 60,000 visitors a day just because of a redirect.

if the two pages were separate, yet linking as related mahalo pages, we would be seen as more of an authority on the subject and could potentially be listed twice in the top ten of a search engine, once for each page, which would get us a LOT more traffic. this is especially true if you use both keywords throughout the text in both pages. you might rank for both terms.

there is nothing to stop one page manager from making both pages, and nothing to stop two different people from making similar pages. unless the page just has a lot better build to it and is more relevant for your particular term, then it should not pull traffic from your page, but rather pull additional traffic in that we otherwise would have lost.

i recommend sending a request to the other page manager and asking for a related pages link to your page, and you reciprocate. you both get a boost that way.

this is just my two cents, and i realize that a lot of pages have been made years ago... but going forward i think this practice could draw a LOT more traffic into mahalo
Source(s):
my two cents and my personal experience both with search engines and mahalo...


Tags: redirect, mahalo

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August 10, 2009 02:50 PM
I completely agree.

My answer was created from a user perspective rather than the (perhaps more appropriate) search engine perspective that you've given.

The problem (and confusion) isn't in the redirect, it's in the content. What is the difference between pages created about "Obama Joker Poster" and "Obama Joker Photo"? Likely very little. However, as long as the content is different enough, you're right in that they will both be indexed and could even simultaneously exist in a search engine result.

At the end of the day, I think that carefully (and quickly) picking the best page title is perhaps the most important element of SERP creation.

But what happens when you don't pick the best title?
What if you picked a poorly worded title or trends change?
What if your content is outstanding but your title is off?

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August 10, 2009 03:18 PM
true.

i believe that if someone is going to choose a similar term to one already being done, it is their responsibility as a page manager to make sure the new page is significantly different from the other page.

in some cases they may be similar... but there needs to be a difference in the way the keywords targeted, even if they are using the same keyword phrases and of course the hand written content needs to be completely original.

and yes, picking the right title is very important, but is also sometimes out of your control or needs to be more specific. for instance...

Topic: cash for clunkers...

for the main program, there is a cash for clunkers page... which should have all information on the topic... or at least highlights of it.

however, this topic has had such differing news coming out on a regular basis that is has spawned several offshoots. we have pages such as Chrysler Cash for Clunkers and GM Cash for Clunkers which go into more depth on those car lines and how the program impacts them... then the news said the program would be suspended... which led to Cash for Clunkers Suspended... a very helpful page for those looking specifically for that part of the Cash for Clunkers information. The news changed again, and Cash for Clunkers Extended was begun. Again... this page details the whole process that the program has gone through beginning with the House of Representatives passing a funding bill to extend it, but also giving some background.

each of these sites is different, and the main page could contain all of the information, but at times a story or topic is so big that it is better to have a main page and then a number of offshoots.

there is no way the main page could rank well for all of those keywords... but by not diluting it and instead focusing on the main topic, then linking to the related pages, it might still come up in the search. it also helps when each of those pages links back to the main topic. i cannot stress that enough.

definitely each page has a better possibility of coming up in SERPS by being specific. in fact, i know several if not all of these pages are making money, and together i am sure it is more than the one page would have made by itself because they can focus on the specifics.

in each case it will ultimately be a judgment call. that is why we have staff to review for us. make your page different enough and they will likely not have any problem with it. i know it will benefit mahalo in the long run.

to answer your questions with my take on it...

if you don't pick the best title, then you can still work on your page to optimize a little better for what should have been your title, while making sure the content is different... and get crosslinked with the other page... it will help you both. choosing the best title comes with experience, and even then no one always gets it right.

if your title is poorly worded, make up for it with your content. if trends change, find a way to capitalize on it... build an offshoot and link to it from the page you already have listed in the search engines, or add new content to reflect the changes. be creative.

and if your content is outstanding but your title is off do not despair--there is still a lot of hope. after all, google didn't mean search in people's minds when they started, but by establishing their content and purpose they now do. there are plenty of examples where the domain or title does not seem to fit the page, but in the end the content wins out.

tucows for shareware, dell for computers, target, walmart, twitter, reddit... all have either branded their product or their content and now the names fit perfectly in people's minds. it just takes longer than choosing say, batteries.com.

i can just about guarantee that a page that is optimized for a term even without it being the title will rank better than a properly titled page with no relevant content. there are only rare exceptions to this and they generally do not last. i won't expound right now on what situations can cause it.

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