answered question
0
Votes
Votes
22
Answers
Answers
M$1.00
Can someone explain Bud's position to me from this blog post?
Bud was one of our early stars on Mahalo Answers, posting some amazing answers and winning the first $100 tip in the system.
http://www.mahalo.com/member/budgallant
In the past couple of days he's talked to me about our seeding of the system with Mahalo Dollars. I'm really having a hard time understanding why Bud is upset that we've given people coupons for free Mahalo Dollars in the system. He's got a long blog post here, but I can't understand why a researcher would be upset that we're putting money into the system that we are willing to pay out?
Are you upset that I'm spending $100 a day in the system?!?!
Does anyone know what the issue is here?
(Note: I posted a comment below his blog post, so please read both before commenting here).
http://budgallant.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/mahalo-confirms-no-real-money-put-into-the-system-by-mahalo/
Help me understand!!!
http://www.mahalo.com/member/budgallant
In the past couple of days he's talked to me about our seeding of the system with Mahalo Dollars. I'm really having a hard time understanding why Bud is upset that we've given people coupons for free Mahalo Dollars in the system. He's got a long blog post here, but I can't understand why a researcher would be upset that we're putting money into the system that we are willing to pay out?
Are you upset that I'm spending $100 a day in the system?!?!
Does anyone know what the issue is here?
(Note: I posted a comment below his blog post, so please read both before commenting here).
http://budgallant.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/mahalo-confirms-no-real-money-put-into-the-system-by-mahalo/
Help me understand!!!
|
Report
answers (21)
I'm not reading the other posts before I post this....
Bud clearly does not understand that M$ are just funny money credits. He's taken a virtual system of credits and confused it with actual $'s.
- Fallacy in his concerns - By putting M$ _into_ the system, Mahalo is enabling more people to get their M$40 cashout faster.
Everything in his blog only makes some sense if you believe M$ = real money. He obviously does by his first line... "A reasonable reader might take from this, the notion that Mahalo is, in fact, putting a huge amount of dollars into the system, in exchange for M$."
But, I think any reasonable person understands that M$ only exist as nominal "credits" within a website.
The rest of his "complaints" are simply explanations of how the site works.
"Paying out" hundreds of thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars is never a promise nor a guarantee. (Real world analogy - How many people requested gold when we had the gold standard?)
As for Mahalo injecting $'s vs. having to "pay" for them, I fail to see any argument that this is a harm? He seems to have a grade school playground fight mentality that you have a privilege somehow because the company gets to ask and answer questions around for "free". But, all you're doing is a real world example of the WPA.
The flaw in his concerns is that, unlike in the real world, by adding free $'s to the system, Mahalo actually creates possible wealth for answers. Why?
Consider the simple equation. Mahalo puts an initial M$100 in. Users put in $100 to generate M$100. That is M$200 in the system.
That provides the opportunity for people to take out $150 out.
If Mahalo "Creates" M$1000 out of thin air by giving away a bunch of M$5 credits, then there are M$1200 out there, with only $100 of real money added. Now, there is $900 of real money to be gained by answering.
Bud, where is the harm or fault in that?
And, finally, people might put in $100 of real money more for answers. Their reward is: $100 of answers. That's their choice to spend their own money for answers. No harm, no foul.
Does Mahalo have every incentive to keep M$ in the system? Well, duh. Of course. But, how is this an argument against the system? The only reason for M$ to exist is to give people a reason to keep answering questions. But, users may want to keep $ in the system so they more questions answered.
Again, it's pay for play. The American way.
I think Bud's problem is he's a bit paranoid and idealistic/unrealistic. He thinks the rules are "gaming the system", when they simply _are_ the system. Of course, Mahalo wants to make a "profit". It would not exist if it didn't want to make a profit. That's how you pay for programmers, for investment money, for advertising.
Mahalo is a business. It's a part of capitalism.
Bud clearly does not understand that M$ are just funny money credits. He's taken a virtual system of credits and confused it with actual $'s.
- Fallacy in his concerns - By putting M$ _into_ the system, Mahalo is enabling more people to get their M$40 cashout faster.
Everything in his blog only makes some sense if you believe M$ = real money. He obviously does by his first line... "A reasonable reader might take from this, the notion that Mahalo is, in fact, putting a huge amount of dollars into the system, in exchange for M$."
But, I think any reasonable person understands that M$ only exist as nominal "credits" within a website.
The rest of his "complaints" are simply explanations of how the site works.
"Paying out" hundreds of thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars is never a promise nor a guarantee. (Real world analogy - How many people requested gold when we had the gold standard?)
As for Mahalo injecting $'s vs. having to "pay" for them, I fail to see any argument that this is a harm? He seems to have a grade school playground fight mentality that you have a privilege somehow because the company gets to ask and answer questions around for "free". But, all you're doing is a real world example of the WPA.
The flaw in his concerns is that, unlike in the real world, by adding free $'s to the system, Mahalo actually creates possible wealth for answers. Why?
Consider the simple equation. Mahalo puts an initial M$100 in. Users put in $100 to generate M$100. That is M$200 in the system.
That provides the opportunity for people to take out $150 out.
If Mahalo "Creates" M$1000 out of thin air by giving away a bunch of M$5 credits, then there are M$1200 out there, with only $100 of real money added. Now, there is $900 of real money to be gained by answering.
Bud, where is the harm or fault in that?
And, finally, people might put in $100 of real money more for answers. Their reward is: $100 of answers. That's their choice to spend their own money for answers. No harm, no foul.
Does Mahalo have every incentive to keep M$ in the system? Well, duh. Of course. But, how is this an argument against the system? The only reason for M$ to exist is to give people a reason to keep answering questions. But, users may want to keep $ in the system so they more questions answered.
Again, it's pay for play. The American way.
I think Bud's problem is he's a bit paranoid and idealistic/unrealistic. He thinks the rules are "gaming the system", when they simply _are_ the system. Of course, Mahalo wants to make a "profit". It would not exist if it didn't want to make a profit. That's how you pay for programmers, for investment money, for advertising.
Mahalo is a business. It's a part of capitalism.
source(s):
Bud's own profile page. He states:
"I follow news and currents events, and am able to "read between the lines" on a number of issues. I share the belief that the few control the many, and that history is not something which happens, but something which is made to happen. I believe in an emerging world order, which will result from a globalist society. I also believe "the slaves shall serve", which is not an endorsement of servitude, but rather a recognition that forcing freedom upon those who choose not to be free, is a violation of their free will, and can not be effected. I will speak on politics, and eugenics, the nature of control and reality, and manipulation of the mind."
Everything in his blog is in line with his own stated core beliefs.
Bud's own profile page. He states:
"I follow news and currents events, and am able to "read between the lines" on a number of issues. I share the belief that the few control the many, and that history is not something which happens, but something which is made to happen. I believe in an emerging world order, which will result from a globalist society. I also believe "the slaves shall serve", which is not an endorsement of servitude, but rather a recognition that forcing freedom upon those who choose not to be free, is a violation of their free will, and can not be effected. I will speak on politics, and eugenics, the nature of control and reality, and manipulation of the mind."
Everything in his blog is in line with his own stated core beliefs.
| Asker's rating: |
He is saying that the mahalo economy is like the economy right before the great depression, nothing. He says that there is no "real" money in the system and therefor mahalo dollars are worth nothing. Because of this, he thinks that he has been wronged and is now trying to hurt mahalo through negative posts.
Umm... Mahalo is a venture-backed startup that raised a lot of capital from the same investors that backed Yahoo, Google, Atari and YouTube. We're not going anywhere. That money does exist in our bank accounts... I think I understand his issue now: he doesn't think we have the money to pay? We do.
If I were you, I would make a big point in saying that there is "real" money. He is just trying to get attention and make mahalo look bad.
Looking over Bud's site along with his profile here on Mahalo his decision to write something such as that becomes even more concerning. From his profile here on Mahalo:
"I am using Mahalo mostly experimentally and so far I am extremely impressed with the community here and with the staff. This is an amazing place."
How and why would someone move from a statement such as that to something so much different, as seen on his blog, within just a little over a week? He does mention in his profile that he is into marketing of ones self and the psychology behind that. Perhaps his blog post is simply that, an attempt to market himself by taking a negative stance against something that is big in the news. By doing so he is guaranteed a large number of eyes will see his writing regardless of if they believe him or not.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be possible for anyone to explain what his actual stance is within that blog post as there are several points that feel as though they ramble on about an "important" topic without giving the read a clear understanding of what that topic actually is.
"I am using Mahalo mostly experimentally and so far I am extremely impressed with the community here and with the staff. This is an amazing place."
How and why would someone move from a statement such as that to something so much different, as seen on his blog, within just a little over a week? He does mention in his profile that he is into marketing of ones self and the psychology behind that. Perhaps his blog post is simply that, an attempt to market himself by taking a negative stance against something that is big in the news. By doing so he is guaranteed a large number of eyes will see his writing regardless of if they believe him or not.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be possible for anyone to explain what his actual stance is within that blog post as there are several points that feel as though they ramble on about an "important" topic without giving the read a clear understanding of what that topic actually is.
He hasn't approved your comment, only you can see it.
I don't care about the system, but I think that blog is gonna' make alot of people quit Mahalo Answers.
I don't care about the system, but I think that blog is gonna' make alot of people quit Mahalo Answers.
If you scroll down can you see it? I can.
Only you can see it until it's approved, that's how wordpress works.
I can see Jason's comments.
Only the screenshots, the comments are not approved and I think they will remain unapproved.
It seems to comments are set to moderated as a default. I hadn't noticed they were there. I approved them. This was not meant to suppress your response. I just hadn't seen the comments yet. I believe they were posted just a short time ago.
Jason's comment says Mahalo Answers is the first product in the world to pay out anything (in the question/answer space, I assume). Google Answers was paying researchers (I was one) years ago - there are some nice parallels between MA and GA actually :)
I can only scratch the surface of someone else's opinion. Nevertheless, I believe Bud feels that, rather than injecting true incentive into the system, they are just playing a numbers game. Since Mahalo gets a chunk out of every pretend dollar - and it's hard to actually cash in on that - seeding many with pretend money doesn't reward star players. This skew in actual value of Mahalo dollars and the overstated publicity seems to irk him.
Somthing has obviously changed his opinion and sent it somewhat off on a tangent.He basiclly is crying con, to see how far it can take him like hooking small worms to catch a big fish to try and get dragged along for the ride with his finger pointing ways.
I think I get it.
He is upset because Mahalo, Inc. does not go through the PayPal process upfront to fund Mahalo Dollars in employee accounts. He views this as gaming, because that means Mahalo, Inc. 'can simply create Mahalo Dollars out of thin air', and therefore, 'they are not real'.
What I think he is missing is that when a Mahalo Answers user requests that their Mahalo Dollars be converted into actual money and transmitted to their Paypal account, this will actually happen. An at *that* moment, Mahalo Inc. will fund those Paypal transactions with real, actual money.
It should be noted that Mahalo, Inc. has no ability to create THAT money out of thin air :)
This is where the 'gaming' argument breaks down.
The other thing to remember is that M$ --> $ exchange rate is fixed. It is not variable. In a currency market with a variable exchange rate, flooding the market with dollars 'out of thin' air would cause deflation, and thus cause the exchange rate to go down. However, that doesn't happen with Mahalo Dollars -- every Mahalo Dollar we put into the system is convertible into real dollars at a fixed rate (.75 per Mahalo Dollar).
Deflation can't happen. Flooding the market with Mahalo Dollars simply means there's more actual money available for users to compete for as tips.
So: Mahalo, Inc. IS putting real money in the system. There is no 'game' here.
He is upset because Mahalo, Inc. does not go through the PayPal process upfront to fund Mahalo Dollars in employee accounts. He views this as gaming, because that means Mahalo, Inc. 'can simply create Mahalo Dollars out of thin air', and therefore, 'they are not real'.
What I think he is missing is that when a Mahalo Answers user requests that their Mahalo Dollars be converted into actual money and transmitted to their Paypal account, this will actually happen. An at *that* moment, Mahalo Inc. will fund those Paypal transactions with real, actual money.
It should be noted that Mahalo, Inc. has no ability to create THAT money out of thin air :)
This is where the 'gaming' argument breaks down.
The other thing to remember is that M$ --> $ exchange rate is fixed. It is not variable. In a currency market with a variable exchange rate, flooding the market with dollars 'out of thin' air would cause deflation, and thus cause the exchange rate to go down. However, that doesn't happen with Mahalo Dollars -- every Mahalo Dollar we put into the system is convertible into real dollars at a fixed rate (.75 per Mahalo Dollar).
Deflation can't happen. Flooding the market with Mahalo Dollars simply means there's more actual money available for users to compete for as tips.
So: Mahalo, Inc. IS putting real money in the system. There is no 'game' here.
Maybe I should create a bank account for staff dollars so he can feel safe in knowing that they are not fake? I could then publish the bank statement from that account?
No, no Jason. He's a guy who doesn't understand it. No self doubt here. Your model makes sense.
Now, if he wants a scam, he should take on swoopo.com. Those people are 1 step shy of being crooks for how they have auctions that aren't really auctions.
Now, if he wants a scam, he should take on swoopo.com. Those people are 1 step shy of being crooks for how they have auctions that aren't really auctions.
Reading his log post he appears to be under the misconception that Mahalo dollars will never leave the system. I haven't seen anything to establish that.
If fact,as a Mahalo "staffer", I've been instructed to award the Mahalo dollars that I've been given to users who are not employed by Mahalo - ensuring that they are avaiilable to users who are free to withdraw them.
So, Mahalo has given me 50 Mahalo dollars to award to independent users--who can do as they like with them. Additionally, any tips that I've received, must also be used as tips to other non-employee members of the community.
I don't see a problem.
If fact,as a Mahalo "staffer", I've been instructed to award the Mahalo dollars that I've been given to users who are not employed by Mahalo - ensuring that they are avaiilable to users who are free to withdraw them.
So, Mahalo has given me 50 Mahalo dollars to award to independent users--who can do as they like with them. Additionally, any tips that I've received, must also be used as tips to other non-employee members of the community.
I don't see a problem.
Has Bud tried to cash out the $121 he's earned? His opinion might change (again) after he does that and is holding his cold hard cash.
This might put an abrupt end to his claims that there is "no real money" in the system.
This might put an abrupt end to his claims that there is "no real money" in the system.
Very good point. People will be able to start requesting their money out of the system next month, so it will be real enough when he gets his check!
I've read the post a few times myself and I can't understand what is upsetting him either.
As I understand it, budgallant seems to be upset that Mahalo is adding Mahalo Dollars to the system FIAT and not "valuing them by converting them from cash." But the way I understand it, Mahalo is 100% willing/capable of cashing out *ALL* Mahalo Dollars in to US Dollars whenever a user is capable. Mahalo can and WILL pay all balances in full, so what does it matter if Mahalo seeds the system with a few thousand M$?
Also, budgallant seems to upset that Mahalo is somehow getting Mahalo Dollars "at a 25% discount." I'm not entirely sure what this argument is about, as it costs nothing to buy Mahalo Dollars (it's a 1:1 transaction).
It seems to me that budgallant has a misunderstanding of 1) how Internet businesses earn money and 2) why Mahalo would prefer long-term reputation over short-term profits.
As I understand it, budgallant seems to be upset that Mahalo is adding Mahalo Dollars to the system FIAT and not "valuing them by converting them from cash." But the way I understand it, Mahalo is 100% willing/capable of cashing out *ALL* Mahalo Dollars in to US Dollars whenever a user is capable. Mahalo can and WILL pay all balances in full, so what does it matter if Mahalo seeds the system with a few thousand M$?
Also, budgallant seems to upset that Mahalo is somehow getting Mahalo Dollars "at a 25% discount." I'm not entirely sure what this argument is about, as it costs nothing to buy Mahalo Dollars (it's a 1:1 transaction).
It seems to me that budgallant has a misunderstanding of 1) how Internet businesses earn money and 2) why Mahalo would prefer long-term reputation over short-term profits.
I think his beef is more with mahalo employees not identifying themselves when answering questions. He also seems to think that we've somehow scammed people by mahalo employees getting the best answer on tipped questions.
His beef is somewhat flawed. When a mahalo employee gets M$ when he/she wins best answer they do not take that money out of the system. I think a lot of people don't realize that we don't take any money out of the system, guides/all employees keep asking questions with that M$. The other thing that I think he missed is that the person who asked a question and picked a mahalo employee's answer as the best got his/her money's worth, they got an answer to their question.
To his point on employees answering employee's questions, in the beginning it was ONLY employees in the system. We were the first people to use it. I also don't really understand how this is scamming people. He talks about M$ coming from "nothingness" when an employee asking a question. This puts money into the system allowing people to then take it out or continue asking questions. If it comes out of nowhere it doesn't matter, it's not like we're devaluing the dollar.
I think he's just looking for a scandal. It's sad, but people have way too much time on their hands and this guys seems to have more than others. I guess I see how it can be somewhat misleading when employees aren't identified anywhere, but I think it's fairly obvious now and I don't see how we can actually take people's money that way.
His beef is somewhat flawed. When a mahalo employee gets M$ when he/she wins best answer they do not take that money out of the system. I think a lot of people don't realize that we don't take any money out of the system, guides/all employees keep asking questions with that M$. The other thing that I think he missed is that the person who asked a question and picked a mahalo employee's answer as the best got his/her money's worth, they got an answer to their question.
To his point on employees answering employee's questions, in the beginning it was ONLY employees in the system. We were the first people to use it. I also don't really understand how this is scamming people. He talks about M$ coming from "nothingness" when an employee asking a question. This puts money into the system allowing people to then take it out or continue asking questions. If it comes out of nowhere it doesn't matter, it's not like we're devaluing the dollar.
I think he's just looking for a scandal. It's sad, but people have way too much time on their hands and this guys seems to have more than others. I guess I see how it can be somewhat misleading when employees aren't identified anywhere, but I think it's fairly obvious now and I don't see how we can actually take people's money that way.
I thought my argument was pretty clear, but apparently there's some confusion among Mahalo users, who I would have thought would understand better than anyone. I had 3 main points.
1. The information given to ABC news to promote the site is incorrect (and off by hundreds of thousands of dollars), by your own admission, Jason.
2. Mahalo floods the system with Mahalo dollars that are simply generated, and not payed for. Users do not have this luxury. A user can only access M$ by exchanging real currency for them. Mahalo is not "buying" M$ as you claimed... it is simply generating them. This creates an ideal system for gaming by the company itself, because it can utilize the virtual money that costs everyone else money to acquire. This creates the impression there is more actual money in the system than there is, as Mahalo has ZERO cost for posting questions and funneling tips into the site. Every other user must pay upfront. This also speaks to Mahalo's motivation for making it as difficult as possible for the money to leave the system. Having your staff award other staff with best answers is precisely what this is intended to do. Are you denying that has occurred? I have documented it on the blog and anyone who follows the paper trail on users profiles can see it, as well. Since employees are not allowed to cash out, you've made it even more obvious what their motive is for transferring around those M$ amongst themselves.
3. This system puts ordinary users at a disadvantage because they are competing for points and money against users that were given M$ by Mahalo simply generated into existence, rather than purchased.
It is true I was initially a supporter of the site, and while I recognize overall it is a step forward in some ways, I have always come to see that this a completely rigged system, and I do not think that is an accident. The reality is Mahalo has built a system where they can flood M$ at no cost into a system in competition with those who pay to utilize those same M$. Mahalo restricts cash out at M$40, a number the vast majority of users will NEVER reach. Total cost to Mahalo for utilizing those M$, a mere fraction... way less than 75%, when you reveal that there is no cost to Mahalo until cash out.
1. The information given to ABC news to promote the site is incorrect (and off by hundreds of thousands of dollars), by your own admission, Jason.
2. Mahalo floods the system with Mahalo dollars that are simply generated, and not payed for. Users do not have this luxury. A user can only access M$ by exchanging real currency for them. Mahalo is not "buying" M$ as you claimed... it is simply generating them. This creates an ideal system for gaming by the company itself, because it can utilize the virtual money that costs everyone else money to acquire. This creates the impression there is more actual money in the system than there is, as Mahalo has ZERO cost for posting questions and funneling tips into the site. Every other user must pay upfront. This also speaks to Mahalo's motivation for making it as difficult as possible for the money to leave the system. Having your staff award other staff with best answers is precisely what this is intended to do. Are you denying that has occurred? I have documented it on the blog and anyone who follows the paper trail on users profiles can see it, as well. Since employees are not allowed to cash out, you've made it even more obvious what their motive is for transferring around those M$ amongst themselves.
3. This system puts ordinary users at a disadvantage because they are competing for points and money against users that were given M$ by Mahalo simply generated into existence, rather than purchased.
It is true I was initially a supporter of the site, and while I recognize overall it is a step forward in some ways, I have always come to see that this a completely rigged system, and I do not think that is an accident. The reality is Mahalo has built a system where they can flood M$ at no cost into a system in competition with those who pay to utilize those same M$. Mahalo restricts cash out at M$40, a number the vast majority of users will NEVER reach. Total cost to Mahalo for utilizing those M$, a mere fraction... way less than 75%, when you reveal that there is no cost to Mahalo until cash out.
Did you realize that users can also fund tips with the money that they've earned? In this regard it also costs them nothing to fund their questions.
The only difference between Mahalo employees/guides and regular users is that Jason/Mahalo gifted us with "M$50 to M$100" (as opposed to M$5 that all existing Mahalo users got) to start with. We have to earn/give away tips just like anyone else after that. In fact, I think you will find that Mahalo emplyees/guides have been the most generous with giving tips out (just look at my profile, for instance).
The only difference between Mahalo employees/guides and regular users is that Jason/Mahalo gifted us with "M$50 to M$100" (as opposed to M$5 that all existing Mahalo users got) to start with. We have to earn/give away tips just like anyone else after that. In fact, I think you will find that Mahalo emplyees/guides have been the most generous with giving tips out (just look at my profile, for instance).
Sure they can earn tips to fund their tipping, but that doesn't cost nothing. Time = Money
Why wouldn't you be generous? You got that $100 for free!
Why wouldn't you be generous? You got that $100 for free!
@harrisonpowers - That is the best reason why budgallant's argument falls short: the time we spend answering questions is far more expensive than the amount of tips that any of the Mahalo folks could accumulate.
I'm not sure I understand the argument about Mahalo guides selecting best answer and earning the tip on the question. In viewing the questions I've asked, I can't see the names of who responded. No icon, no name. Only the answers until after I select the best answer. If I happened to have selected another Mahalo guide, they must enter the money back into the system.
Edited to add.. That feature seems to have changed since I posted my last question. Please disregard.
Edited to add.. That feature seems to have changed since I posted my last question. Please disregard.
I think I can speak to point #2. Your argument is that when Mahalo employees spend Mahalo dollars asking questions, they are "generated out of nothingness." This is misleading, however. Our Mahalo dollars are generated out of real funds in our bank account. If Mahalo.com gives me M$50 and I use that money as a tip to a non-employee, that person can then remove the money. They get $37.50 and we get $12.50. That's real money that is no longer in our account. We will only make money when users fund accounts with their own money and tip each other. By converting Mahalo's money into Mahalo dollars, we're actually losing it when it's taken out of the system.
As to your point about Mahalo employees tipping each other, it's already been pointed out that this is done only when we undoubtedly have the best answer, and it's required that we use those Mahalo dollars to ask further questions. In essence, it's impossible for Mahalo as a company to get that money back after it's been put in Mahalo Answers. It's out there and can only be removed by a user. That's how we'll get our 25% and turn a profit. I can absolutely assure you that Mahalo employees are not conspiring to tip each other, and even if we were, it would be completely useless, since that money isn't ours!
You refer to the idea that it takes "zero cost" for Mahalo to funnel tips into the site. That's not true. It costs just as much out of Mahalo's bank account as it does out of any individual user. The only difference is that we get the 25% fee back if, and only if, a user removes it.
As to your point about Mahalo employees tipping each other, it's already been pointed out that this is done only when we undoubtedly have the best answer, and it's required that we use those Mahalo dollars to ask further questions. In essence, it's impossible for Mahalo as a company to get that money back after it's been put in Mahalo Answers. It's out there and can only be removed by a user. That's how we'll get our 25% and turn a profit. I can absolutely assure you that Mahalo employees are not conspiring to tip each other, and even if we were, it would be completely useless, since that money isn't ours!
You refer to the idea that it takes "zero cost" for Mahalo to funnel tips into the site. That's not true. It costs just as much out of Mahalo's bank account as it does out of any individual user. The only difference is that we get the 25% fee back if, and only if, a user removes it.
I am amused that some of the very employees whose own profiles indicate they are involved in filtering M$ through to other employees, and also receiving them, are trying to convince people I have no argument. I have clearly documented examples of staff involved in gaming the system, by selecting other staff for best answer. The fact this was ever and still is allowed, demonstrates Mahalos intent to keep that money from being cashed out. Since employees can't cash out, you've only made my argument stronger.
Additionally, you can put all the spin you want on this and continue to make yourselves look even more dishonest, but the bottom line is this:
MAHALO DOES NOT "BUY" M$. Period. Mahalo only pays for M$ when they are "taken out of the system", which they almost never will be. Users pay for M$ to put them into the system in the first place. You can have your botnet on here funnel around money, and post about how my arguments are invalid all you want, but you can not change reality. Jason, you asked what could be done to improve this earlier. The answer is simple. Either stop charging users for putting money in, and charge them only when money is taken out (there goes your racket, because it will almost never happen), or else have Mahalo buy the M$ used to post, rather than letting the company generate them and only incur cost when they are taken out of the system.
This is not difficult to understand. Why are users paying upfront for M$ that the company only pays for upon cash out? How about leveling the playing field, and not charging users unless someone cashes out their $M, like you are doing amongst yourselves?
If the company is so certain that users will be cashing out and making a bundle of money here, then the company has no reason not to change the payment structure for users to match it's own. Let users use M$ for free until another user takes them out of the system. The reason you won't do this is because you know, by your own calculations, only a fraction of money will ever leave.
Lead by example, if those M$ are so valuable, the company should be purchasing them just like everyone else. If they are only assigned a value by the company upon cash out, then users should be charged only upon cash out, as well.
This is not about "15 minutes of fame", or a "blog that nobody reads". This is about deliberate gaming of the system by Mahalo, by taking dishonest steps to limit the chances of a cash out, including having stealth employees funneling money, which is greatly enhanced by Mahalo's practice of only incurring a cost when the money is taken out of the system. This provides precisely the incentive to attempt to have as little leave as possible.
Additionally, you can put all the spin you want on this and continue to make yourselves look even more dishonest, but the bottom line is this:
MAHALO DOES NOT "BUY" M$. Period. Mahalo only pays for M$ when they are "taken out of the system", which they almost never will be. Users pay for M$ to put them into the system in the first place. You can have your botnet on here funnel around money, and post about how my arguments are invalid all you want, but you can not change reality. Jason, you asked what could be done to improve this earlier. The answer is simple. Either stop charging users for putting money in, and charge them only when money is taken out (there goes your racket, because it will almost never happen), or else have Mahalo buy the M$ used to post, rather than letting the company generate them and only incur cost when they are taken out of the system.
This is not difficult to understand. Why are users paying upfront for M$ that the company only pays for upon cash out? How about leveling the playing field, and not charging users unless someone cashes out their $M, like you are doing amongst yourselves?
If the company is so certain that users will be cashing out and making a bundle of money here, then the company has no reason not to change the payment structure for users to match it's own. Let users use M$ for free until another user takes them out of the system. The reason you won't do this is because you know, by your own calculations, only a fraction of money will ever leave.
Lead by example, if those M$ are so valuable, the company should be purchasing them just like everyone else. If they are only assigned a value by the company upon cash out, then users should be charged only upon cash out, as well.
This is not about "15 minutes of fame", or a "blog that nobody reads". This is about deliberate gaming of the system by Mahalo, by taking dishonest steps to limit the chances of a cash out, including having stealth employees funneling money, which is greatly enhanced by Mahalo's practice of only incurring a cost when the money is taken out of the system. This provides precisely the incentive to attempt to have as little leave as possible.
OK, I can appreciate your observations, and I can see how you can conclude that there's an appearance of impropriety here, i.e. "gaming the system." But I think that making the conclusion that the system is gamed from the start and designed to be unfair is rather harsh.
As a guide, yes, I was given $50 Mahalo dollars to start with. And for the first week of beta, it was a closed system. I could only trade fundage with other Mahalo guides. Now that the system is open, I am asking questions and giving tips to other people, not just Mahalo guides. Yes, some of the "best answers" I have chosen have gone to guides. Because I am looking for the best answer, not whether the individual is a guide or not.
As of late, now that other users are starting to come up in the ranks, I am doing my best to, if given equal answer quality, give the best answer to a non-Mahalo affiliate. But I have been choosing quality of answer over who wrote the answer as a criteria.
There is, in fact, I believe, an opportunity to make MORE money with this seed system at this point. A user does not have to pay a dime into the system in order to answer questions and make money, because there is a fairly large amount of Mahalo dollars already in the system. To me, this doesn't seem like "gaming this system" it seems like free money.
I did notice that you've already made $121 dollars in tips in your short time here. That's $90 that you will be able to cash out in less than a month. Now, it's not a ton of money, not even McDonalds pay, but it's money that you made with very little effort.
Furthermore, I notice that you have only given out $3 in tips so far.
I do not have the ability to tell if you have paid any funds into the system as of yet.
I also looked at the Top 10 Mahalo Guides who are answers users. This includes me. All have given out more tips than they have received. Most have given out close to $50 or more. So whatever money we get is going back into the system.
The only way it might be gaming the system is if there's some kind of conspiracy among Mahalo guides to only give Mahalo guides tips. There's not.
As I explained, part of the reason this is happening is that the guides were beta testers and had more time to play within the system.
I think that, the more users that come into the system, the more of the Mahalo "seed money" will start to spread out across the rest of the users.
My motives are pure and my ethics are clean. I just like to answer questions.
As a guide, yes, I was given $50 Mahalo dollars to start with. And for the first week of beta, it was a closed system. I could only trade fundage with other Mahalo guides. Now that the system is open, I am asking questions and giving tips to other people, not just Mahalo guides. Yes, some of the "best answers" I have chosen have gone to guides. Because I am looking for the best answer, not whether the individual is a guide or not.
As of late, now that other users are starting to come up in the ranks, I am doing my best to, if given equal answer quality, give the best answer to a non-Mahalo affiliate. But I have been choosing quality of answer over who wrote the answer as a criteria.
There is, in fact, I believe, an opportunity to make MORE money with this seed system at this point. A user does not have to pay a dime into the system in order to answer questions and make money, because there is a fairly large amount of Mahalo dollars already in the system. To me, this doesn't seem like "gaming this system" it seems like free money.
I did notice that you've already made $121 dollars in tips in your short time here. That's $90 that you will be able to cash out in less than a month. Now, it's not a ton of money, not even McDonalds pay, but it's money that you made with very little effort.
Furthermore, I notice that you have only given out $3 in tips so far.
I do not have the ability to tell if you have paid any funds into the system as of yet.
I also looked at the Top 10 Mahalo Guides who are answers users. This includes me. All have given out more tips than they have received. Most have given out close to $50 or more. So whatever money we get is going back into the system.
The only way it might be gaming the system is if there's some kind of conspiracy among Mahalo guides to only give Mahalo guides tips. There's not.
As I explained, part of the reason this is happening is that the guides were beta testers and had more time to play within the system.
I think that, the more users that come into the system, the more of the Mahalo "seed money" will start to spread out across the rest of the users.
My motives are pure and my ethics are clean. I just like to answer questions.
In fact, it is not true I have given out only $3. I have actually spent $20. For some reason the stats are skewed. You can confirm this by looking at my "tips given" tab. I have my suspicions for why the "tips given" are being reported incorrectly on profiles, as well. Certainly makes it harder to see from the staffs profiles that the same M$ are more or less going round and round, isn't it?
No conspiracy per se. Just smart, if somewhat deceptive business practice. When cost is only incurred upon cash out, Mahalo has every motivation to take steps to limit the amount cashed out. This is a policy as evidenced by the $40 limit. I contend, based on monitoring staff activity, that it goes beyond that. Mahalo can increase the perception of transparency quite easily. Stop charging users for putting M$ in, and charge them only when those M$ come out. That's the racket Mahalo is running, and trying to convince us that it is on equal footing. If Mahalo is so sure all this money will leave the system thereby enriching it's users, there's no reason not to change this to be in line with what Mahalo itself is doing.
No conspiracy per se. Just smart, if somewhat deceptive business practice. When cost is only incurred upon cash out, Mahalo has every motivation to take steps to limit the amount cashed out. This is a policy as evidenced by the $40 limit. I contend, based on monitoring staff activity, that it goes beyond that. Mahalo can increase the perception of transparency quite easily. Stop charging users for putting M$ in, and charge them only when those M$ come out. That's the racket Mahalo is running, and trying to convince us that it is on equal footing. If Mahalo is so sure all this money will leave the system thereby enriching it's users, there's no reason not to change this to be in line with what Mahalo itself is doing.
Are you saying you paid $20 of your own money into mahalo?
OK. I get it now. You feel suckered because now you can only get $15 for your $20.
So, your saying if someone puts in $40, and wants a refund... then they can only get $30 back.
NOW I GET IT! Sheesh.
Okay, okay. Jason, that's the crux I think. Bud feels like people who put money in, but then have regrets, and want a refund, are screwed.
I don't know. It's still pretty flimsy. I mean, everyone is told up front that the "outgoing" conversion rate is M$1 -> $.75, and the ingoing conversion rate is $1 -> M$1.
So, basically, I think Bud's position is that you are a "corrupt money changer".
Which is true - only if you 1. Don't understand the clearly stated exchange rates and 2. Regret putting your own $'s in after winning some answered tips.
(If you like this answer, please best answer my post below where I'm reposting this...)
OK. I get it now. You feel suckered because now you can only get $15 for your $20.
So, your saying if someone puts in $40, and wants a refund... then they can only get $30 back.
NOW I GET IT! Sheesh.
Okay, okay. Jason, that's the crux I think. Bud feels like people who put money in, but then have regrets, and want a refund, are screwed.
I don't know. It's still pretty flimsy. I mean, everyone is told up front that the "outgoing" conversion rate is M$1 -> $.75, and the ingoing conversion rate is $1 -> M$1.
So, basically, I think Bud's position is that you are a "corrupt money changer".
Which is true - only if you 1. Don't understand the clearly stated exchange rates and 2. Regret putting your own $'s in after winning some answered tips.
(If you like this answer, please best answer my post below where I'm reposting this...)
It's funny how he's made such a 180 deg turn. I think he's trying to get this 15 mins of fame. Look how much attention has been given to him regarding his blog post and his comments on Geek News. Not many CEOs would spend the time and effort on one insignificant user of 6500+ user community.
I guess he should have answered this question then: http://www.mahalo.com/answers/mahalo-answers-community/have-you-ever-had-your-15-minutes-of-fame-if-so-when-where-and-how-did-it-happen ;)
It seems like he's saying Mahalo Answers has an unfair advantage, because it can seed the system with M$ and not pay anything upfront for it, while users on the other hand have to pay immediately when they add M$ to their accounts.
I think he is saying Mahalo is artificially inflating the activity of its own system, but paying nothing for it. This is somehow "gaming." Question then: is there some kind of inherent unfairness in the fact that users pay up front, but Mahalo does not? I mean, if the user gets their payout eventually, why would it matter if Mahalo had paid to pay upfront to "value" its own M$ currency, or waited until someone cashed out? Money is money for the user, no matter how Mahalo keeps its books.
One of his other points is that, through all of this, Mahalo's motivation is clearly to prevent itself from ever having to pay out. This point doesn't hold up for me, though, since the MORE MONEY Mahalo gives its users, the MORE LIKELY it is they will reach $40 and opt for a cash-out.
Mahalo is actually speeding up the Mahalo Answers economy, and giving people more of a chance to cash out faster. They now have 5 free M$ to push them closer to $40.
I think this will become more clear as users start to cash out their money, and people understand and trust the system.
I think he is saying Mahalo is artificially inflating the activity of its own system, but paying nothing for it. This is somehow "gaming." Question then: is there some kind of inherent unfairness in the fact that users pay up front, but Mahalo does not? I mean, if the user gets their payout eventually, why would it matter if Mahalo had paid to pay upfront to "value" its own M$ currency, or waited until someone cashed out? Money is money for the user, no matter how Mahalo keeps its books.
One of his other points is that, through all of this, Mahalo's motivation is clearly to prevent itself from ever having to pay out. This point doesn't hold up for me, though, since the MORE MONEY Mahalo gives its users, the MORE LIKELY it is they will reach $40 and opt for a cash-out.
Mahalo is actually speeding up the Mahalo Answers economy, and giving people more of a chance to cash out faster. They now have 5 free M$ to push them closer to $40.
I think this will become more clear as users start to cash out their money, and people understand and trust the system.
I read it a couple times and it still doesn't make sense to me... This community that Jason and Mahalo have made is to help people. Why in the world would he want to ruin something like that? I don't understand why some people need to be-rate this product... all it is trying to do is bring people closer together and help each other.
I know money is a sticky point right now (especially these days); however, this product that is BRAND new and there are going to be some growing pains... come on GET OVER IT!!! I joined Mahalo cause I wanted to help too. If money happens to come my way (even if it is a small amount), I will be happy. Anything is better than nothing. Jason and Mahalo have a business to run and if you don't like the way they do it... then don't play!
I know money is a sticky point right now (especially these days); however, this product that is BRAND new and there are going to be some growing pains... come on GET OVER IT!!! I joined Mahalo cause I wanted to help too. If money happens to come my way (even if it is a small amount), I will be happy. Anything is better than nothing. Jason and Mahalo have a business to run and if you don't like the way they do it... then don't play!
His is a pointless complaint about procedure. Who cares? Who reads that blog? You have more important things to worry about in justifying your business model. Such as: who would pay for an answer that could be quickly googled? And, how do you attract people capable of answering questions that cannot be quickly googled?
It seems that the point of this article is that Mahalo is a business. This seems relatively transparent to me and anyone else with a brain. If he is this unhappy with yours, perhaps he has a deeper issue with capitalism.
Perhaps he wishes Mahalo Answers were maintained by compassionate robots with neverending power supplies, vast knowledge, and an unhealthy programmed love for answering and asking questions. My understanding, however, is that people actually work for Jason, and perhaps they wish to be paid. This money has to come from somewhere.
People wouldn't be flocking to Mahalo if it weren't unique, intriguing, and fun. Nobody HAS to use it. If it weren't cool and useful in some way, there wouldn't be a new user every minute, as seems to be the case.
If anything, I find it pretty remarkable that you have any time to answer questions or emails at all and that you actively contribute so much to the system.
I did not get the feeling that he was saying you weren't going to pay out, just that he was accusing you of wanting the money to stay in the economy.
Not to use the parlance of 4 seasons ago, but, "Well, duh." Better for the users and better for the bottom line.
Perhaps he wishes Mahalo Answers were maintained by compassionate robots with neverending power supplies, vast knowledge, and an unhealthy programmed love for answering and asking questions. My understanding, however, is that people actually work for Jason, and perhaps they wish to be paid. This money has to come from somewhere.
People wouldn't be flocking to Mahalo if it weren't unique, intriguing, and fun. Nobody HAS to use it. If it weren't cool and useful in some way, there wouldn't be a new user every minute, as seems to be the case.
If anything, I find it pretty remarkable that you have any time to answer questions or emails at all and that you actively contribute so much to the system.
I did not get the feeling that he was saying you weren't going to pay out, just that he was accusing you of wanting the money to stay in the economy.
Not to use the parlance of 4 seasons ago, but, "Well, duh." Better for the users and better for the bottom line.
No my position is Mahalo should not participate in questions or answers using M$ unless they obtain them the same way as users do. Very simple.
I also want to see Mahalo disallow employees shifting M$ around amongst one another to ensure they do not leave the system, and cost the company anything. I have documented this occurring. Mahalo still has not changed it's policy to guard against this, by banning staff from answering questions altogether.
All very straightforward. As it stands now, the system is rigged.
I also want to see Mahalo disallow employees shifting M$ around amongst one another to ensure they do not leave the system, and cost the company anything. I have documented this occurring. Mahalo still has not changed it's policy to guard against this, by banning staff from answering questions altogether.
All very straightforward. As it stands now, the system is rigged.
First, it is a for-profit enterprise. They can run it any way they see fit. If people wish to use the services they provide and the services are legal, I don't see a problem with the business model.
Second, I think it is too bold of you to say that most people will never see $40. This may be true for some, but I would expect that an average person could easily get $40 in a month.
Third, nobody has the potential of getting rich off of this site except Jason. If this is a problem for anyone, then they should consider it and determine whether they can live with this fact. To get $40 on this site, I would have had to work around 40 hours. In "real life," I make around twice that an hour, so the monetary incentive, while more attractive than "points," is definitely not the oil of this program. There must be something else.
Fourth, I don't see why it is so wrong for them to print their own money if the company is ultimately responsible for forking out 75% of that money. Nobody is denying that they are spreading the money around among one another; perhaps their colleagues had the best answer. How do you think I felt awarding someone that has a Tesla Roadster a "Best Answer?" But I did, because Jason had the, uh, best answer, and the company made a whopping 25 cents and the power of another M$. I have also awarded other staff with Best Answer. At some point, the number of real users will far outnumber the Mahalo staff, and unless they all begin funding themselves with, say, M$100 a day, the M$ the Mahalo staff are funneling into the system today to get the party started will seem rather inconsequential. I think it is presumptuous to say that the money they are putting in now will likely never likely be paid out. Perhaps they will be a bit more concerned with enjoying the real money they are making from the site.
This is not a social Utopian experiment, as much as we all wish it were. In the end, Mahalo's end goal is "making money;" we get some answers and some entertainment. Again, if this is too much for someone to handle, then they are free to stop using the service.
Surely there are far less scrupulous services out there that are more worthy of attack.
Second, I think it is too bold of you to say that most people will never see $40. This may be true for some, but I would expect that an average person could easily get $40 in a month.
Third, nobody has the potential of getting rich off of this site except Jason. If this is a problem for anyone, then they should consider it and determine whether they can live with this fact. To get $40 on this site, I would have had to work around 40 hours. In "real life," I make around twice that an hour, so the monetary incentive, while more attractive than "points," is definitely not the oil of this program. There must be something else.
Fourth, I don't see why it is so wrong for them to print their own money if the company is ultimately responsible for forking out 75% of that money. Nobody is denying that they are spreading the money around among one another; perhaps their colleagues had the best answer. How do you think I felt awarding someone that has a Tesla Roadster a "Best Answer?" But I did, because Jason had the, uh, best answer, and the company made a whopping 25 cents and the power of another M$. I have also awarded other staff with Best Answer. At some point, the number of real users will far outnumber the Mahalo staff, and unless they all begin funding themselves with, say, M$100 a day, the M$ the Mahalo staff are funneling into the system today to get the party started will seem rather inconsequential. I think it is presumptuous to say that the money they are putting in now will likely never likely be paid out. Perhaps they will be a bit more concerned with enjoying the real money they are making from the site.
This is not a social Utopian experiment, as much as we all wish it were. In the end, Mahalo's end goal is "making money;" we get some answers and some entertainment. Again, if this is too much for someone to handle, then they are free to stop using the service.
Surely there are far less scrupulous services out there that are more worthy of attack.
I mean, I understand your criticism. As I am saying the staff are using the $M to "get the party started," maybe Team Mahalo's $M at some point could be distributed to charity or the like, once the system can support itself exclusively.
Alright, let me attempt to cut to the heart of the matter - accounting.
Bud has no knowledge of how you are booking the "expense" of issuing M$. He assumes that you should have to deposit money into your own paypal account - you could do that, but you don't need to. You just need to do a journal entry to move the money from one place to another in the company. Nothing nefarious with that - it happens all the time.
If you are (for example) booking every dollar you issue as an expense then it's just like you are spending real money right then.
But, I'm guessing it's more complicated than that because it doesn't take into account how you are holding onto money that people are putting into the system.
Possibly you are booking the dollars you are issuing as a prepaid expense, and then only booking the expense when you issue payouts. That would make more sense to me.
Another way to look at the M$ is that Mahalo is the like the US mint - it can issue new currency into the system. Or, if it's easier - like stock. Companies can choose to issue more stock out into the world. Issuing more devalues the system, but can encourage use. Buying back stock (or taking currency out of circulation) is a normal part of this system. Perhaps the ability of employees to gain tips is intended.
Jason, would it make sense to disable employees from being able to earn tips - only to give them out? That would eliminate any question of gaming. What advantage is there for employees to earn tips, unless there are internal spiffs for being a top knowledge resource? Just a thought.
Bud has no knowledge of how you are booking the "expense" of issuing M$. He assumes that you should have to deposit money into your own paypal account - you could do that, but you don't need to. You just need to do a journal entry to move the money from one place to another in the company. Nothing nefarious with that - it happens all the time.
If you are (for example) booking every dollar you issue as an expense then it's just like you are spending real money right then.
But, I'm guessing it's more complicated than that because it doesn't take into account how you are holding onto money that people are putting into the system.
Possibly you are booking the dollars you are issuing as a prepaid expense, and then only booking the expense when you issue payouts. That would make more sense to me.
Another way to look at the M$ is that Mahalo is the like the US mint - it can issue new currency into the system. Or, if it's easier - like stock. Companies can choose to issue more stock out into the world. Issuing more devalues the system, but can encourage use. Buying back stock (or taking currency out of circulation) is a normal part of this system. Perhaps the ability of employees to gain tips is intended.
Jason, would it make sense to disable employees from being able to earn tips - only to give them out? That would eliminate any question of gaming. What advantage is there for employees to earn tips, unless there are internal spiffs for being a top knowledge resource? Just a thought.
You answer is well thought out, I think.
I do not think Mahalo will do as you suggest regarding book keeping, because this would cause them a liquidity problem, if it was done properly. As it stands now, the information I was provided unofficially is that Mahalo has agreed to support the infrastructure of Mahalo Answers by paying for the cost of the M$ cashed out, and that the money is available, but not actually spent unless it has to be.
In other words, they are not going to freeze up their own money, when all they need to do is have it remain accessible if needed, while in other investments. A user, however, does not gain the benefit of only paying when money is cashed out of the system, and using it for other pursuits until then. Primarily, I am concerned over the unbalance because it shows a real incentive to keep those M$ from being cashed out, and employee activity seems to be indicating exactly that in some cases. A user loses money before they can put M$ into the system, Mahalo on the other hand, loses money only when M$ come out. Is it any wonder that so much M$ are going back and forth and that nearly none of what has been put into the system has been cashed out?
Those M$ are all going somewhere... and it seems as though they are being cycled back and forth in most cases, which means if they are company injected M$ they have not actually cost anything, and will not unless cashed out. Mahalo should be playing by it's own rules. Posting tips for free using M$ and only paying if they leave the system should be an option for users, as well as Mahalo, if it is an option for them at all. As I said, this will not happen, because (and here is my bottom line), the system is designed to keep the M$ circulating, and to ensure only a fraction of them ever become cash. Prove me wrong, Mahalo... let's see the numbers for how many M$ you've payed out?
I do not think Mahalo will do as you suggest regarding book keeping, because this would cause them a liquidity problem, if it was done properly. As it stands now, the information I was provided unofficially is that Mahalo has agreed to support the infrastructure of Mahalo Answers by paying for the cost of the M$ cashed out, and that the money is available, but not actually spent unless it has to be.
In other words, they are not going to freeze up their own money, when all they need to do is have it remain accessible if needed, while in other investments. A user, however, does not gain the benefit of only paying when money is cashed out of the system, and using it for other pursuits until then. Primarily, I am concerned over the unbalance because it shows a real incentive to keep those M$ from being cashed out, and employee activity seems to be indicating exactly that in some cases. A user loses money before they can put M$ into the system, Mahalo on the other hand, loses money only when M$ come out. Is it any wonder that so much M$ are going back and forth and that nearly none of what has been put into the system has been cashed out?
Those M$ are all going somewhere... and it seems as though they are being cycled back and forth in most cases, which means if they are company injected M$ they have not actually cost anything, and will not unless cashed out. Mahalo should be playing by it's own rules. Posting tips for free using M$ and only paying if they leave the system should be an option for users, as well as Mahalo, if it is an option for them at all. As I said, this will not happen, because (and here is my bottom line), the system is designed to keep the M$ circulating, and to ensure only a fraction of them ever become cash. Prove me wrong, Mahalo... let's see the numbers for how many M$ you've payed out?
In your example, what do you propose should happen to the tip money that would've gone to staff if they provided the best answer?
And Bud, having them tell you how much they have payed out is a bunk metric, because the vast majority of people on here are not only answering M$ questions but asking M$ questions, and are surely using their M$ tip pool to do so. As well, the site is still too new for many to have eclipsed the M$40 payout amount.
I understand that you expect few will cash out if they must get M$, but again, if they're line of thought is, "I'll never get $40," or "It is not worth the effort for me to get $40," this is their decision, and if leads them to piping the M$ back into the system, then I don't think it is a deceptive, rigged process, but again, a good business model. If people don't have the tenacity or don't feel their time is worth earning M$40, this is not Mahalo's fault, it is just Mahalo's policy.
I would expect Jason et. al spent a lot of time coming up with the M$40 number, and perhaps it is the smallest amount the company can transfer without losing money (this would be an advanced formula taking account of many subtle variables). I'm just saying, this could be just as likely as a malicious, deceptive intent to keep the money from being paid out.
We can't know whether either is true unless Jason is compelled to tell us, I am just saying there are likely other reasons for the M$40 payout amount other than simply attempting to rig the system.
I understand that you expect few will cash out if they must get M$, but again, if they're line of thought is, "I'll never get $40," or "It is not worth the effort for me to get $40," this is their decision, and if leads them to piping the M$ back into the system, then I don't think it is a deceptive, rigged process, but again, a good business model. If people don't have the tenacity or don't feel their time is worth earning M$40, this is not Mahalo's fault, it is just Mahalo's policy.
I would expect Jason et. al spent a lot of time coming up with the M$40 number, and perhaps it is the smallest amount the company can transfer without losing money (this would be an advanced formula taking account of many subtle variables). I'm just saying, this could be just as likely as a malicious, deceptive intent to keep the money from being paid out.
We can't know whether either is true unless Jason is compelled to tell us, I am just saying there are likely other reasons for the M$40 payout amount other than simply attempting to rig the system.
Bud's points are valid. (I have some of the same concerns.)
Jason's points are valid.
Giving early users M$5 helps fund the economy here. I think I'm typical in that I asked a few no tip questions, got good answers, then noticed that I had an email from Jason. I then started attaching tips to my questions. Those tips motivate others to answer.
An early question had a M$100 tip attached. Now, I'm sure that THAT was user-funded money. (I'm not sure, but i thought i saw that tip get rescinded, then i think the best answerer was eventually paid their $M100.) I did see that Jason publicized the fact that mahalo answers got their first 100 dollar question. That's smart. And it's also smart to not say "Hey everyone look over here!" and then halfway down that page have a string of complaints about how the best answer deserves the M$100 but got ripped off.
Let's see if I can list some facts:
1) Mahalo has given away hundreds of thousands of M$s.
2) About 10% of those $M offers have been redeemed and is moving around in the "MA economy."
3) Mahalo has been sent via paypal or CC, a certain amount of US$.
4) 100% of that money was converted to M$ and is moving around in the "MA economy."
5) At some point, people will start moving their M$ to US$. (How soon, and at what percentage rate, nobody knows.)
Jason thinks this will be "soon and lots"
Bud thinks this will be "later and rarely"
Jason knows the money (or at least 75% of it!) is in the bank, ready to be paid out. (in real, US dollars ... to the extent that US$ are real!)
Bud suspects that MA will go broke when everyone decides to cash out.
Bud also suspects that hardly anyone will want to take the 25% hit and most players will leave their M$s in the MA economy, or abandon them.
I'd encourage the parties to make a phone call and work it out.
Jason's points are valid.
Giving early users M$5 helps fund the economy here. I think I'm typical in that I asked a few no tip questions, got good answers, then noticed that I had an email from Jason. I then started attaching tips to my questions. Those tips motivate others to answer.
An early question had a M$100 tip attached. Now, I'm sure that THAT was user-funded money. (I'm not sure, but i thought i saw that tip get rescinded, then i think the best answerer was eventually paid their $M100.) I did see that Jason publicized the fact that mahalo answers got their first 100 dollar question. That's smart. And it's also smart to not say "Hey everyone look over here!" and then halfway down that page have a string of complaints about how the best answer deserves the M$100 but got ripped off.
Let's see if I can list some facts:
1) Mahalo has given away hundreds of thousands of M$s.
2) About 10% of those $M offers have been redeemed and is moving around in the "MA economy."
3) Mahalo has been sent via paypal or CC, a certain amount of US$.
4) 100% of that money was converted to M$ and is moving around in the "MA economy."
5) At some point, people will start moving their M$ to US$. (How soon, and at what percentage rate, nobody knows.)
Jason thinks this will be "soon and lots"
Bud thinks this will be "later and rarely"
Jason knows the money (or at least 75% of it!) is in the bank, ready to be paid out. (in real, US dollars ... to the extent that US$ are real!)
Bud suspects that MA will go broke when everyone decides to cash out.
Bud also suspects that hardly anyone will want to take the 25% hit and most players will leave their M$s in the MA economy, or abandon them.
I'd encourage the parties to make a phone call and work it out.
I have read Bud's blog postings a few times now. I understand his concerns about M$s being paid to employees, though I do think that those concerns have been thoughtfully and articulately refuted in many of the answers here.
Bud's concerns about people not collecting the M$ they buy/earn seems to me to demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of capitalism and business. Anytime a consumer puts money out, there is the possibility that their investment might not pay off as they would hope - ask anyone who invested with Bernie Madoff. Cars depreciate immensely the moment the paperwork is signed and the car driven off the lot. Stores push gift cards because they know a large percentage of them will never be redeemed. In 2006 alone, $8 billion in gift cards went unclaimed. Are the stores that sold these gift cards knowing that there was a good chance that money would never be spent in their store "gaming" their customers?
Capitalism is about making a profit. Operating a successful business requires that a profit be made. Mahalo is being open and upfront about what they are taking off the top. And as others have pointed out, this is a very new enterprise. It launched a little over a week ago. There has not been nearly enough time to assess what percentage of users will move money out of the MA system and what amount of money (if any) those users initially invested.
From Bud's statements on his blog, he is not a fan of Capitalism, so, of course he would not be a fan of MA. But his disapproval does not translate into evidence that MA is a scam. It seems rather apparent to me that it is simply a business.
Bud's concerns about people not collecting the M$ they buy/earn seems to me to demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of capitalism and business. Anytime a consumer puts money out, there is the possibility that their investment might not pay off as they would hope - ask anyone who invested with Bernie Madoff. Cars depreciate immensely the moment the paperwork is signed and the car driven off the lot. Stores push gift cards because they know a large percentage of them will never be redeemed. In 2006 alone, $8 billion in gift cards went unclaimed. Are the stores that sold these gift cards knowing that there was a good chance that money would never be spent in their store "gaming" their customers?
Capitalism is about making a profit. Operating a successful business requires that a profit be made. Mahalo is being open and upfront about what they are taking off the top. And as others have pointed out, this is a very new enterprise. It launched a little over a week ago. There has not been nearly enough time to assess what percentage of users will move money out of the MA system and what amount of money (if any) those users initially invested.
From Bud's statements on his blog, he is not a fan of Capitalism, so, of course he would not be a fan of MA. But his disapproval does not translate into evidence that MA is a scam. It seems rather apparent to me that it is simply a business.
this is nuts! all these long answers - it just makes it more complicated.
Bud completely misses the point - MA is designed to "share knowledge, learn and get (your) questions answered" - basically to help people to get answers to questions they have (and that is a good thing). The purpose of MA (again) is to create a place where people can get intelligent answers to their questions - and people who like helping others can share their knowledge - simple as that - tips are just bonus, a little incentive and nothing more. The simple fact is - the more virtual currency is in the system - the more users have a chance to get a piece of it (either to tip others or to convert to US$), but in NEVER should be a primary reason for using MA.
argument that M$ cost nothing to Mahalo employees and it creates disadvantage for others is nuts as well - this is a new site (started just over a week ago) and naturally Mahalo employees where the first people to use it - someone has to create some content - right? Mahalo funded the system to get it off the ground, and to get more folks incentive to try the system (in addition to level belt, etc.), but again this is a place to share knowledge - it should be more like a game NOT a competition! If you like the idea of helping other people to find quality answers to their questions, please be a part of it, but if you a worried about level field and other nonsense, please do something else. This virtual currency discussion is way overrated - company will only make money if LOTS of people start using this service, and it most likely make more money on ads than on M$ anyway.
so my advice would be - just pour yourself a glass of milk, grab a cookie, sit down and just look around you - the world is beautiful - the sky is blue, sun is shinning (or not, depends where you are), birds a singing (or not), flowers blooming (or maybe it's snowing, I don't know), anyhow you get the idea - it all depend on how you look at it... and while you in the good mood, answer a question or two :)
cheers and happy Holidays!
Bud completely misses the point - MA is designed to "share knowledge, learn and get (your) questions answered" - basically to help people to get answers to questions they have (and that is a good thing). The purpose of MA (again) is to create a place where people can get intelligent answers to their questions - and people who like helping others can share their knowledge - simple as that - tips are just bonus, a little incentive and nothing more. The simple fact is - the more virtual currency is in the system - the more users have a chance to get a piece of it (either to tip others or to convert to US$), but in NEVER should be a primary reason for using MA.
argument that M$ cost nothing to Mahalo employees and it creates disadvantage for others is nuts as well - this is a new site (started just over a week ago) and naturally Mahalo employees where the first people to use it - someone has to create some content - right? Mahalo funded the system to get it off the ground, and to get more folks incentive to try the system (in addition to level belt, etc.), but again this is a place to share knowledge - it should be more like a game NOT a competition! If you like the idea of helping other people to find quality answers to their questions, please be a part of it, but if you a worried about level field and other nonsense, please do something else. This virtual currency discussion is way overrated - company will only make money if LOTS of people start using this service, and it most likely make more money on ads than on M$ anyway.
so my advice would be - just pour yourself a glass of milk, grab a cookie, sit down and just look around you - the world is beautiful - the sky is blue, sun is shinning (or not, depends where you are), birds a singing (or not), flowers blooming (or maybe it's snowing, I don't know), anyhow you get the idea - it all depend on how you look at it... and while you in the good mood, answer a question or two :)
cheers and happy Holidays!
Wow... Very interesting smear campaign here. Either that or people truly very confused... still, even after I have clarified my position over and over.
I'm "clearly not a fan of Capitalism" judging by my blog? What? Are you implying I am a Communist now? Is McCarthy one of Mahalo's investors? I have made no argument against Capitalism and every argument against gaming the system, while providing examples of it taking place.
Darcy, you are COMPLETELY WRONG about how paying for M$ works by users. Your second sentence even directly contradicts your first. Users PAY to use the M$ in the first place, when they purchase them from the site. Mahalo, however, does not pay to use them when they post the M$ questions. Mahalo only incurs cost when those M$ in puts in itself are taken out. For this reason, Mahalo's business is to ensure as little will be cashed out as possible. Those that are not cashed out, cost nothing to the company and increase it's profit What you people fail to grasp, and Jason knows quite clearly, is the cash out is not profit to Mahalo. The cash out, in any circumstance is a loss. Mahalo makes 25% off of what is cashed out, and 100% off of what remains in the system. *** Reality Check: Mahalo's profit is not coming from users cashing out, it is coming from systematically preventing cash outs as much as possible ***
I don't care what Mahalo does on it's own infrastructure, so long as it is transparent and doesn't manipulate the system. My issue is not the 25%. I have never claimed I do not think Mahalo has the money... are you kidding me? Mahalo has hundreds of thousands available if needed. Of course it has the money to pay out the fraction needed to the users who actually manage to take it out of the system... It's taking in hundreds of times more than it will ever pay out to it's users. That is my point. Mahalo going broke? If they can go broke running this game, then I'll be the first person be shocked and awed.
To this day, Mahalo has taken in thousands of dollars from it's users and has payed out to NOBODY. Not a single user has received a cash out from Mahalo. If this is incorrect, why isn't Jason showing the numbers? It'd be very easy to do. Let's see it in percentage. % of money put in system, versus % of money taken out. Come on now... Be honest about your business model, is my only point and stop allowing employees to keep M$ out of the system by answering questions for them, and being awarded best answer either by themselves or users.
I'm "clearly not a fan of Capitalism" judging by my blog? What? Are you implying I am a Communist now? Is McCarthy one of Mahalo's investors? I have made no argument against Capitalism and every argument against gaming the system, while providing examples of it taking place.
Darcy, you are COMPLETELY WRONG about how paying for M$ works by users. Your second sentence even directly contradicts your first. Users PAY to use the M$ in the first place, when they purchase them from the site. Mahalo, however, does not pay to use them when they post the M$ questions. Mahalo only incurs cost when those M$ in puts in itself are taken out. For this reason, Mahalo's business is to ensure as little will be cashed out as possible. Those that are not cashed out, cost nothing to the company and increase it's profit What you people fail to grasp, and Jason knows quite clearly, is the cash out is not profit to Mahalo. The cash out, in any circumstance is a loss. Mahalo makes 25% off of what is cashed out, and 100% off of what remains in the system. *** Reality Check: Mahalo's profit is not coming from users cashing out, it is coming from systematically preventing cash outs as much as possible ***
I don't care what Mahalo does on it's own infrastructure, so long as it is transparent and doesn't manipulate the system. My issue is not the 25%. I have never claimed I do not think Mahalo has the money... are you kidding me? Mahalo has hundreds of thousands available if needed. Of course it has the money to pay out the fraction needed to the users who actually manage to take it out of the system... It's taking in hundreds of times more than it will ever pay out to it's users. That is my point. Mahalo going broke? If they can go broke running this game, then I'll be the first person be shocked and awed.
To this day, Mahalo has taken in thousands of dollars from it's users and has payed out to NOBODY. Not a single user has received a cash out from Mahalo. If this is incorrect, why isn't Jason showing the numbers? It'd be very easy to do. Let's see it in percentage. % of money put in system, versus % of money taken out. Come on now... Be honest about your business model, is my only point and stop allowing employees to keep M$ out of the system by answering questions for them, and being awarded best answer either by themselves or users.
have you lost your mind? looks like it - and it's too bad. I guess when you look at something for too long, you start seeing things that are not there... it happens - what can you do :)
good luck though on the dark side
good luck though on the dark side
Related questions
140 characters left
ask any question
----------
Are you saying you paid $20 of your own money into mahalo?
OK. I get it now. You feel suckered because now you can only get $15 for your $20.
So, your saying if someone puts in $40, and wants a refund... then they can only get $30 back.
NOW I GET IT! Sheesh.
Okay, okay. Jason, that's the crux I think. Bud feels like people who put money in, but then have regrets, and want a refund, are screwed.
I don't know. It's still pretty flimsy. I mean, everyone is told up front that the "outgoing" conversion rate is M$1 -> $.75, and the ingoing conversion rate is $1 -> M$1.
So, basically, I think Bud's position is that you are a "corrupt money changer".
Which is true - only if you 1. Don't understand the clearly stated exchange rates and 2. Regret putting your own $'s in after winning some answered tips.
It's really a very simple argument to grasp. Whoever posts a question using tips, whether they are Mahalo staff or a user, should be on the same level playing field. Currently, that is not the case. Users always incur a cost to use M$, whereas Mahalo only occurs a cost in rare occurrence a user reaches over M$40 and cashes out.
Also to clarify something, I did not spend $20 in real money, I spent M$20 in providing tips, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my position. Whoever thinks they are so brilliant, needs to look at my stats. There's a reason I am still in first place for tips received (ie. have made more money than ANY OTHER USER on this site), even though I stopped participating days ago. I'm the very last person that has an agenda to discredit Mahalo without cause. My motives are not personal, whereas your motives posting for Jason's cash incentive to try and make money certainly are. Deliciously ironic...
Mahalo's marketing practices are deceptive. Mahalo's two-tiered system for M$ is inappropriate. That is the bottom line. Before anyone posts another uneducated response, perhaps they should work there way up to #1 on the site, and displace me. I could argue have more experience with this site than everyone but the staff here, and it is clear what position they will take.
It would seem that some little guys down there are more focused on their envy for my holding the top spot for tips, than a desire to apply some critical thinking to Mahalo's business practices. That's fine. If you believe the system is so fair to you that you engage in inane personal attacks, I hope you're proven right. Despite my winnings, I'm still speaking out against a system that is unfair. I don't expect users motivated by greed to appreciate my doing it. More than any other user, I am in a position to speak on the ability for Mahalo users to make money here. I have made more (hypothetical) money than any of you have. Why do you think that is?
I really think you've made a mountain out of a mole hill. It's a business, and you are essentially complaining with the manner in which Mahalo gives their users money. Stop and think about that for a second.
That's crap. I never once got that impression, Bud. I think you're overreacting and being paranoid.