1 year, 4 months ago
If you knew there was a 90% chance that someone on life support would recover in 9 months would it be okay to pull the plug if you had no $?
This is a two part question. Try to formulate your answer for the first part before reading the last part. Notice if and how your answer or willingness to answer changes. This is an exercise in a personal moral/ethical dilemma. Nothing more. Answer as you read, try not to skip ahead. Notice if and how your answers change as the dilemma unfolds.
Part 1:
Would you feel justified in pulling the plug if you didn't have a support system in place to help you care for them once they recovered? Would it be okay to terminate them?
What if you knew that even if they survived (remember, like a 90% chance) you'd have to care for them for the next 20 years until they fully recovered? Is that too much of your life to sacrifice when all you have to do is sign the order to not resuscitate and pull the plug (assuming that was an option of course)?
For the sake of argument, what if you had to give up an organ to save them that you are 80% likely to need or die without it. Would you be okay with letting them die so you could live out your life?
What if you were only 18 and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you knew it?
What if the reason they were on life support was because they were raped but the part of their brain that could remember it was broken? Would you want them to come out of their vegetative state knowing you'd have to explain what happened one day (or at least try) and how and not know how it would affect them? Would it be better to put them out of their (or your perceived) misery?
Is there any condition or set of conditions that you can imagine that you would feel okay pulling the plug?
Would your answer change if this person was related to you? Would your answer change if this person wasn't related to you? Would your answers change if this was a choice someone else had to make and you knew they were considering it? How would you advise them?
Part 2
(I know you skipped ahead and read this part before answering the first part but I tried.) What if you were the life support system and the "thing" on life support was inside you? Remember, only 9 months before it's able to breath on it's own. How does this change your answer? Why does it change your answer?
How can you justify pulling the plug (so to speak) on anyone you knew would fully recover in 9 months no matter what their age? Does your answer change if it's not you that has to decide? Would it change if you had to make that decision for yourself in the next 15 days or that choice would be taken from you? Should you be allowed to make that decision for anyone but yourself? Why? What makes you the right person to tell anyone what to do but yourself?
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Disclaimer: This is a hot button topic. I believe that women have the right to choose. That being said, I'm glad I never have to make that decision because even though I support a woman's choice and any number of reasons for it, I can't help but relate the condition to the one I asked in Part A leading you to think it was an adult on life support. So I support women's right to choose but I'd never want to be that woman making that choice and I'm sorry for anyone who has ever been in that situation and made the hard choices one way or the other. So please don't take the proposed dilemma as a personal challenge or judgement. I'm hoping that more people who haven't thought about it quite like this will be the ones that answer first. Thank you for wandering down this prickly path today - even those who were too intimidated by such a controversial topic to chime in.
Part 1:
Would you feel justified in pulling the plug if you didn't have a support system in place to help you care for them once they recovered? Would it be okay to terminate them?
What if you knew that even if they survived (remember, like a 90% chance) you'd have to care for them for the next 20 years until they fully recovered? Is that too much of your life to sacrifice when all you have to do is sign the order to not resuscitate and pull the plug (assuming that was an option of course)?
For the sake of argument, what if you had to give up an organ to save them that you are 80% likely to need or die without it. Would you be okay with letting them die so you could live out your life?
What if you were only 18 and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you knew it?
What if the reason they were on life support was because they were raped but the part of their brain that could remember it was broken? Would you want them to come out of their vegetative state knowing you'd have to explain what happened one day (or at least try) and how and not know how it would affect them? Would it be better to put them out of their (or your perceived) misery?
Is there any condition or set of conditions that you can imagine that you would feel okay pulling the plug?
Would your answer change if this person was related to you? Would your answer change if this person wasn't related to you? Would your answers change if this was a choice someone else had to make and you knew they were considering it? How would you advise them?
Part 2
(I know you skipped ahead and read this part before answering the first part but I tried.) What if you were the life support system and the "thing" on life support was inside you? Remember, only 9 months before it's able to breath on it's own. How does this change your answer? Why does it change your answer?
How can you justify pulling the plug (so to speak) on anyone you knew would fully recover in 9 months no matter what their age? Does your answer change if it's not you that has to decide? Would it change if you had to make that decision for yourself in the next 15 days or that choice would be taken from you? Should you be allowed to make that decision for anyone but yourself? Why? What makes you the right person to tell anyone what to do but yourself?
---
Disclaimer: This is a hot button topic. I believe that women have the right to choose. That being said, I'm glad I never have to make that decision because even though I support a woman's choice and any number of reasons for it, I can't help but relate the condition to the one I asked in Part A leading you to think it was an adult on life support. So I support women's right to choose but I'd never want to be that woman making that choice and I'm sorry for anyone who has ever been in that situation and made the hard choices one way or the other. So please don't take the proposed dilemma as a personal challenge or judgement. I'm hoping that more people who haven't thought about it quite like this will be the ones that answer first. Thank you for wandering down this prickly path today - even those who were too intimidated by such a controversial topic to chime in.
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M$8 Answers
This is a great question. I have to make a similar decision soon. I have thought long and hard over the last few months, but still have not had the courage to sign the paperwork. My situation is with my Mom. She was diagnosed with severe bipolar and Dementia almost 2 years ago. Her condition just sprang on us and the doctors think her divorce had something to do with the quick onset. Two years ago Mom had a full time job, a car, a home and a marriage. She lost everything within months. Her bipolar is severe and she has schizophrenia tendencies. On my doorstep with no job, no money left was Mom.. It took me one day to realize something was not right. Finally getting her diagnosed was a long process. Fast forward to today. She is now safe in a nursing home that specializes with dementia and mental illness. I was told that with her condition she will soon forget to chew and eat. I need to make the decision to give her a feeding tube or not.
I searched high and low through all of her paperwork and belongings because I had sworn there was once a will. But could find nothing. I do remember a talk with her once that was brief. She asked if I would promise to never to allow her to be on life support. I promised, and that was that. I believe I know what decision I need to make, but to me either choice is horrible.
To answer your questions above, I would not take into consideration myself, or what I would have to go through or deal with taking care of someone, that is just not me. I like to put myself in someone else's shoes and hope if I ever had to be put on life support someone would honor my wishes. If I had never discussed my dying wishes, I would hope someone would make a choice on what they thought I would have wanted.
If I still had no idea, I would ask myself what I would want done and base my decision on that.
You asked if someone had a 90% chance of recovering in 9 months, what would I do. I would hope that I knew what they wanted. If I did not know, I would allow them to be on life support. Knowing they had a 90% chance to recover would make my decision easier. If the person on life support was raped, my decision would remain the same. Treatment is available to help people with the devastating effects of rape.
As for having the right to chose, I am all for it. I am a woman myself, and try not to judge others. I have two beautiful children of my own and suffered 4 miscarriages. I would not ever have an abortion, but who am I to judge what others may do. I do not know someone elses story, what they have been through or how they got pregnant. I know many people take a stand against what I am saying and that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions, as well.
I searched high and low through all of her paperwork and belongings because I had sworn there was once a will. But could find nothing. I do remember a talk with her once that was brief. She asked if I would promise to never to allow her to be on life support. I promised, and that was that. I believe I know what decision I need to make, but to me either choice is horrible.
To answer your questions above, I would not take into consideration myself, or what I would have to go through or deal with taking care of someone, that is just not me. I like to put myself in someone else's shoes and hope if I ever had to be put on life support someone would honor my wishes. If I had never discussed my dying wishes, I would hope someone would make a choice on what they thought I would have wanted.
If I still had no idea, I would ask myself what I would want done and base my decision on that.
You asked if someone had a 90% chance of recovering in 9 months, what would I do. I would hope that I knew what they wanted. If I did not know, I would allow them to be on life support. Knowing they had a 90% chance to recover would make my decision easier. If the person on life support was raped, my decision would remain the same. Treatment is available to help people with the devastating effects of rape.
As for having the right to chose, I am all for it. I am a woman myself, and try not to judge others. I have two beautiful children of my own and suffered 4 miscarriages. I would not ever have an abortion, but who am I to judge what others may do. I do not know someone elses story, what they have been through or how they got pregnant. I know many people take a stand against what I am saying and that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions, as well.
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M$
Wow! Lots of questions to answer. Your analogies in Part 1 are great, but don't really change my answers.
I believe in either case it is not OK to "pull the plug" if there is any chance that the person will recover. $ should have no impact. There are always options (Medicaid, adoption). A single life is worth more than all the $$$ in world.
If, as you stated, you had to "care" for the person for the next 20 years, you would still have the options stated (Medicaid, adoption).
If you had to give up an organ, or in the case of pregnancy, stood a good chance of dying if you went to term, then you would have to consider the value of each life, yours and theirs. It's a simple choice once you decide which life is worth more (not easy to do, I'm sure).
What if you were only 18 and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you knew it? Again, adoption is always an option. There are millions of people waiting to adopt newborns and give them loving homes.
As for the rape issue: I would think the person would just be happy to be alive and however you "told" them about the rape would be OK. If you've been a loving friend/parent during the recovery/child rearing, then they will understand. As you said, it may only be your perceived misery.
Is there any condition or set of conditions that you can imagine that you would feel okay pulling the plug? No.
Would your answer change if this person was related to you? Would your answer change if this person wasn't related to you? I don't think so. I might not have the same conviction in the case of the vegetative patient, but as regards the one in utero, the answer would be the same.
Would your answers change if this was a choice someone else had to make and you knew they were considering it? How would you advise them? See answers above. No change to answers.
As for having to decide within 15 days or losing your choice, I know it sounds cut and dry, but my choice would have already been made once I had all the facts.
Don't get me wrong, I also support a woman's right to chose, and I think I know what my "choice" would be if I were in that situation, but I know that it must be an extremely difficult choice to make. There are many life changes involved and each person needs to decide for themselves what is right for them. Having said that, and as I stated above, I think that a saving a human life (or something that will become a life, if you choose to view it that way) is far more important than any other consideration. Once the life is saved, you can work out the details of "what happens next". Until then, life must prevail.
I believe in either case it is not OK to "pull the plug" if there is any chance that the person will recover. $ should have no impact. There are always options (Medicaid, adoption). A single life is worth more than all the $$$ in world.
If, as you stated, you had to "care" for the person for the next 20 years, you would still have the options stated (Medicaid, adoption).
If you had to give up an organ, or in the case of pregnancy, stood a good chance of dying if you went to term, then you would have to consider the value of each life, yours and theirs. It's a simple choice once you decide which life is worth more (not easy to do, I'm sure).
What if you were only 18 and you couldn't handle the responsibility and you knew it? Again, adoption is always an option. There are millions of people waiting to adopt newborns and give them loving homes.
As for the rape issue: I would think the person would just be happy to be alive and however you "told" them about the rape would be OK. If you've been a loving friend/parent during the recovery/child rearing, then they will understand. As you said, it may only be your perceived misery.
Is there any condition or set of conditions that you can imagine that you would feel okay pulling the plug? No.
Would your answer change if this person was related to you? Would your answer change if this person wasn't related to you? I don't think so. I might not have the same conviction in the case of the vegetative patient, but as regards the one in utero, the answer would be the same.
Would your answers change if this was a choice someone else had to make and you knew they were considering it? How would you advise them? See answers above. No change to answers.
As for having to decide within 15 days or losing your choice, I know it sounds cut and dry, but my choice would have already been made once I had all the facts.
Don't get me wrong, I also support a woman's right to chose, and I think I know what my "choice" would be if I were in that situation, but I know that it must be an extremely difficult choice to make. There are many life changes involved and each person needs to decide for themselves what is right for them. Having said that, and as I stated above, I think that a saving a human life (or something that will become a life, if you choose to view it that way) is far more important than any other consideration. Once the life is saved, you can work out the details of "what happens next". Until then, life must prevail.
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M$
Interesting way to prove a point. As expected yes, my answer did change after reading the second part. Before I read part two my big question was, "Who is it?". To me it would depend if I considered their life more valuable than my own (whether I were to lose it literally or in essence through their care is irrelevant.) For example, if the person was my husband or child the answer would be yes, provided there quality of life would not be sacrificed. I would not wish to live life disabled (think mentally or missing both legs not minor disabilities.) and would not be responsible for putting someone else in that position. Outside of those I love dearly I would have to weigh the pros and cons. I suppose you could say I don't properly value human life, but I see overpopulation from a fear of death as dooming us all to extinction. People die and they should die. We are not as valuable as we believe ourselves to be.
Now after reading the second part my view changed drastically. We are no longer talking about a human who has lived, we are talking about an innocent, a baby. I'm seeing you presenting this as a women who has been raped and has no money, making the decision to abort or not. Personally I would not be in such a position because allowing rape is a great dishonor in my religion, I would not survive. I would die trying to avoid the dishonor or survive without it, there is not another option. As for abortion, being a mother I doubt my ability to abort a child. Possibly if I knew without doubt the child would arrive into this world at an unavoidable disadvantage. For example if a doctor told me, this child will be born severely mentally challenged, I would be brave and do what was right for the child, not my morality, and release it to be reborn into a healthy vessel. If I simply couldn't afford the child then it is my responsibility to make the money to afford it. Choices such as these do not take 15 days, you do the honorable thing, what is right for the child, what ever that may be.
No I don't think anyone should be able to make such a decision for you, its yours and you have to live with it.
Now after reading the second part my view changed drastically. We are no longer talking about a human who has lived, we are talking about an innocent, a baby. I'm seeing you presenting this as a women who has been raped and has no money, making the decision to abort or not. Personally I would not be in such a position because allowing rape is a great dishonor in my religion, I would not survive. I would die trying to avoid the dishonor or survive without it, there is not another option. As for abortion, being a mother I doubt my ability to abort a child. Possibly if I knew without doubt the child would arrive into this world at an unavoidable disadvantage. For example if a doctor told me, this child will be born severely mentally challenged, I would be brave and do what was right for the child, not my morality, and release it to be reborn into a healthy vessel. If I simply couldn't afford the child then it is my responsibility to make the money to afford it. Choices such as these do not take 15 days, you do the honorable thing, what is right for the child, what ever that may be.
No I don't think anyone should be able to make such a decision for you, its yours and you have to live with it.
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M$
I am not suprised to see the abortion question hit this forum. It does seem that, that question has been dividing America for well over a generation. Very little seems to get done as our nation argues over and over again this issue. Too bad we cannot get past this point, so much is at stake.
I do not believe that pulling the plug on life support is the same a an abortion. This is a false argument because the premise of the question is flawed. We cannot know that in 9 months the individual on life support will survive. If we knew, we would have no choice. Life support is not terminated if there is a chance of survival.
I do not believe that pulling the plug on life support is the same a an abortion. This is a false argument because the premise of the question is flawed. We cannot know that in 9 months the individual on life support will survive. If we knew, we would have no choice. Life support is not terminated if there is a chance of survival.
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M$
Yowser! You sound like you are pushing the point that people have abortions just because they don't have $$$.
The sad thing is, when people have babies because of peer pressure, or pressure from their parents, or cultural pressure they are often really really lousy parents. Ok, not all of them are abusive enough to get arrested, but look around - so many break my heart - what with the way they treat their kids, like little objects.
I think abortion is a sad choice, a last alternative, not anything I've done myself - and yet still preferable to some of the awful awful parenting I have seen
The sad thing is, when people have babies because of peer pressure, or pressure from their parents, or cultural pressure they are often really really lousy parents. Ok, not all of them are abusive enough to get arrested, but look around - so many break my heart - what with the way they treat their kids, like little objects.
I think abortion is a sad choice, a last alternative, not anything I've done myself - and yet still preferable to some of the awful awful parenting I have seen
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M$
I would do what ever it takes to keep the person alive because if they are not brain dead they stand a great chance of surviving. That is why people have lived years in a coma because there brain wasn't dead. Now if the brain is dead then I say yes pull the plug.
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M$
Hi Silverhammer,
I want to share somethings with you pertaining to your questions and statements. It is very touching and very deep down personal to deal with in many ways. I used to work in medical field so i have seen alot of this. I also lost my ex mother in law to lou gherig disease whom die on the life support. The family had to make deicision to either sign paper to let her go or the state would take over have her life on the life support til her heart quit. The family at that time didn't want her to suffer as she had suffer already. We had to pull the plug but in the same sense my ex mother in law was ready to go and there was peace.
At this time i am caring for my husband who is also suffering with emphysema also has oxygen. He is coming to the end stages of the disease. Not easy to deal with. But i do want to share this. When my husband got ill 10yrs ago. We had sat down and talk about all the possiblities and what if's and what not. What would be his request when the time came to be put on machines to be force to live or DNR ( do not rescuciate). My husband choose the DNR. He refuses to be placed on machines is his request. I will do his request this is his wish. I do have peace over this request took me a long time to accept it but i have. I am ok with it.
So now as time as pass on. Personally deep inside me. I would not want anyone to suffer or to be like a vegetable waiting to see if or maybe they can recover but what are the chances even if the doctors say hey.. in 9 mons or few years they will come out of it and live a normal life. Not all humans come out that lucky or even live a normal life after being in coma or totally out of it living off the machines. Doctors are not always right just cause of technology. And believe me i know this is hard to deal with.
If someone had a heart attack and was rushed in hospital for surgury. Afterwards they are place on the machines but it only temporary. I don't have a problem with that cause it was for surgury purpose. But for someone that been in coma or living off the machines for a long time. No i truly feel that we are making them suffer more. Who wants to suffer like that. Not i. I would rather die in peace than to live off the life support.
For a woman who been hurt and raped went into a coma that is pregnant cause of it. Was put on life support. It really a tough question.. why cause some woman may come out of it and be ok. But don't want to have a reminder of what happen to them cause of a baby. I don't see a problem with letting baby go if the woman chooses this for the rape reason. Cause a woman has to live it for the rest of her life and have a reminder in her face all the time cause of it. No way. Even that woman in that choice is suffering.
Some woman may come out of it just fine and want the baby. Seriously it all depends on the situations of each woman and how extensive the rape is or damage is done.
But life support i feel should only be for temporary not for long forcing someone to live off it for months or even many years. That is truly hardship emotional. As for money everything takes money no matter what you do. But there are ways to get help for cost of things even throught the hospital that has programs to help with cost to defray the cost of bill.
Many of those that do come off the life support. Do need alot of special care for the rest of their lives. Why? Cause their bodies aren't use to be able to do things in everyday life. Their bodies has to be retrained or some in bed permantly. The body doesn't become very active when your on life support for a very long time. It needs alot of rehabilation to get the person to walk again and to do things again. Some do become indepent but not all of them.
My recommendations to those of you that wonder about what i say and feel about this. I can only say. Talk to your loves ones and ask them what do they want and what is their wishes if anything should happen. I would rather please and do someone request than try to see what should i do now or what is in the best interest of the situation.
Thank you for bringing this up it truly very touching.
I want to share somethings with you pertaining to your questions and statements. It is very touching and very deep down personal to deal with in many ways. I used to work in medical field so i have seen alot of this. I also lost my ex mother in law to lou gherig disease whom die on the life support. The family had to make deicision to either sign paper to let her go or the state would take over have her life on the life support til her heart quit. The family at that time didn't want her to suffer as she had suffer already. We had to pull the plug but in the same sense my ex mother in law was ready to go and there was peace.
At this time i am caring for my husband who is also suffering with emphysema also has oxygen. He is coming to the end stages of the disease. Not easy to deal with. But i do want to share this. When my husband got ill 10yrs ago. We had sat down and talk about all the possiblities and what if's and what not. What would be his request when the time came to be put on machines to be force to live or DNR ( do not rescuciate). My husband choose the DNR. He refuses to be placed on machines is his request. I will do his request this is his wish. I do have peace over this request took me a long time to accept it but i have. I am ok with it.
So now as time as pass on. Personally deep inside me. I would not want anyone to suffer or to be like a vegetable waiting to see if or maybe they can recover but what are the chances even if the doctors say hey.. in 9 mons or few years they will come out of it and live a normal life. Not all humans come out that lucky or even live a normal life after being in coma or totally out of it living off the machines. Doctors are not always right just cause of technology. And believe me i know this is hard to deal with.
If someone had a heart attack and was rushed in hospital for surgury. Afterwards they are place on the machines but it only temporary. I don't have a problem with that cause it was for surgury purpose. But for someone that been in coma or living off the machines for a long time. No i truly feel that we are making them suffer more. Who wants to suffer like that. Not i. I would rather die in peace than to live off the life support.
For a woman who been hurt and raped went into a coma that is pregnant cause of it. Was put on life support. It really a tough question.. why cause some woman may come out of it and be ok. But don't want to have a reminder of what happen to them cause of a baby. I don't see a problem with letting baby go if the woman chooses this for the rape reason. Cause a woman has to live it for the rest of her life and have a reminder in her face all the time cause of it. No way. Even that woman in that choice is suffering.
Some woman may come out of it just fine and want the baby. Seriously it all depends on the situations of each woman and how extensive the rape is or damage is done.
But life support i feel should only be for temporary not for long forcing someone to live off it for months or even many years. That is truly hardship emotional. As for money everything takes money no matter what you do. But there are ways to get help for cost of things even throught the hospital that has programs to help with cost to defray the cost of bill.
Many of those that do come off the life support. Do need alot of special care for the rest of their lives. Why? Cause their bodies aren't use to be able to do things in everyday life. Their bodies has to be retrained or some in bed permantly. The body doesn't become very active when your on life support for a very long time. It needs alot of rehabilation to get the person to walk again and to do things again. Some do become indepent but not all of them.
My recommendations to those of you that wonder about what i say and feel about this. I can only say. Talk to your loves ones and ask them what do they want and what is their wishes if anything should happen. I would rather please and do someone request than try to see what should i do now or what is in the best interest of the situation.
Thank you for bringing this up it truly very touching.
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M$
No it's not okay to pull the plug, morally, or religiously.
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M$
Sorry you feel that way even i am religious but you really have to be in the position and to know what it really feels like in real life. Even as we christains don't want our love ones to suffer. As much as we may want them alive. We can't think about what we want.. We have to think on what is best and right for situation.
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I have few living relatives, I know of Dementia in the family, but that's it and no specifics.
My family are my living will. Like your mother I choose no life support. Like you they know the real choice is theirs to make. Like your mother, I have faith in my family connections, above all others.
No, fortunately I'm not in this situation. But it was to be discussed on NPR's Philosophy Talks program today (if I recall the name of the program correctly). Hearing the topic and the raging debate made me wonder if the same rules applied to adults as to unborn children. They were going to discuss the views on when a life begins too which unfortunately has no single definition according to science. So yes, all of this is left to conscience. What is sad is that many of the people who argue these points one way or the other do nothing for those who are dying every day from lack of nutrition and lack of proper health care. These "armchair" philosophers (myself sometimes included) feel comfortable having an opinion as long as they don't have to do anything about it or it doesn't affect them personally. A serious topic to say the least. Both my parents have DNR orders but when the time comes it may still require me to split hairs and make the final decision.
For me? If there's a 90% chance of full recovery it's worth it. But if a persons quality of life is severely impaired (in spite of State care) I would be okay not prolonging the suffering. Just being alive isn't the only criteria for living in my opinion.
I was very touched by your answer, thank you. If I had any money left after posting this question I would tip. Thank you again.
Thanks Silver. I hope this is just a general question and you do not need to make any big life changing decision. To me it feels like no options feel right. That is what makes such decisions so hard. Sometimes you need to follow your heart.
Good! I am glad to hear it is just a discussion. I tend to agree with you about the "armchair" philosophers.
I am not sure I should dare say this, but instead of sitting outside clinics with signs, and harassing women at the lowest point in their lives, these people can help those in need. There are plenty of soup kitchens and homeless shelters that could use volunteers. Or better yet, create a program that will allow teens (and women) to care for unplanned pregnancies. Just telling people not to have abortions, in my opinion, is not enough. Create a solution that will work.