If there was a draft do you think Americans would stand for a 30,000 troop surge in Afghanistan?
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M$5 Answers
A: I think it's fair to say that Americans would probably not tolerate any kind of draft to do with Afghanistan, surge or no surge.
It's not easy to see now, but in fact the attitude of US citizens towards the issue of conscription and war in general has changed a *lot* over the last 20 years.
People are a lot more open about saying what they think and how they feel than they were even 20 years ago, at the time of Gulf-War I.
I remember how, before it started, there was a tremendous amount of objection flying around the pre-web internet on majordomo forums, but the day the bombs started falling, all those forums shut up... voluntarily. Everyone who had a job just quietly went to work, feeling grateful to not be one of those over there.
Even so, something happened the day before the bombs started hitting Iraq that had never happened before... objectors in American cities were holding protest vigils the night *before* the order to launch was given. That was the first time in American history that protests were happening *before* the bombs started to drop.
Since that time I have seen a loosening up and opening up of a willingness to exercise free-speech that simply would not have been imaginable in the 80's... not that it's stopped the fighting... for that to happen there must be organization... but at least there's *talk* about it on levels of frankness and honest feeling by the masses that would have been dared by only the gutsiest of Vietnam war protesters.
Over that same period of time there has been a definite clarification of attitude among US citizens with respect to the draft, and that is... it's only used if the sovereign borders of American soil are under real, direct, immediate, and potentially overwhelming attack, and the scale of an invasion.
Otherwise, don't try to con people into believing that defense of Halliburton-style shareholder investments overseas is the same as a threat to the nation.
Yes we know that a rather smelly legal rationalization for foreign intervention is if certain Americans have invested themselves in those foreign locations, and those investments are threatened, such that use of US forces to protect those investments is crudely equated to protection of Americans themselves, but it's so blatantly an issue of protecting the economic interests of that minority who could afford to invest that there's no way you're going to draft conscripts into fighting for it.
Volunteers signed up by virtue of their own free will to serve as the equivalent of Athenian Hoplites, and so they know what they were getting into, but there's no way you're going to conscript healthy citizens into defending the over-seas interests of a handful of tax-evading Yankee traders who spend most of their time in the Bahamas already.
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M$"Personally, I think that the soldiers who have signed up for the army should bear the brunt, and no draft should be instituted. I know it's hard on them to serve long tours of duty, but they chose to fight, and knew we were at war, or knew we could be and it was their responsibility to go. Until we have run through those who wanted to fight, we should not be pulling people away from their families."
As American Citizens we ALL bear the brunt of protecting our liberties and the liberties of our children.
"Until we have run through those who WANTED to fight"?
No one WANTS to fight, they feel it's their DUTY to enlist. They feel as though they need to serve their country. And "running through" them is certainly a harsh and intolerable way of putting it.
I respect your opinon, however, I certainly disagree with your depiction of the men and women currently serving in the military.
If the US constituted a draft, I'm certain it would be met with enough backlash to either be revoked, or rebelled against.
More Americans every day are expressing their disapproval in the war, and how our government is handling this situation, and they are showing their disapproval in President Obama's approval ratings. Which by the way are slipping with every passing day.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/17/opinion/polls
/main5680779.shtml
There is no doubt that a draft, at this point, would very well be the turning point for the worst in this country, especially given the financial crisis we have already been facing.
The last American draft was issued in response to the Vietnam War in 1969 and lasted until 1973. This was the last time that anyone was "forced" to enter military service and fight for their country.
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M$
Well said.
You are correct, military service in America is indeed a choice. But it is only a choice, because someone else, many years ago, chose to fight. I'm sure we all remember the history lessons from school, and we all know how our liberties came to be.
I am a woman, however, that does not change the fact that I myself have served, in the US Navy. That does not mean that I endorse or support a draft. I have a young man at home, and I can tell you that I would certainly be considering my options should a draft be instituted. I count myself as one of the thousands of mothers that are holding their sons close, and praying that day does not arrive.
This does not, however, change the fact that the men and women who are serving now, deserve our support. Not to be dismissed and dispensable, or "run through". The manner in which you stated this gives the impression that once they have all been "used" ,then we pull others from their families. These soldiers, and sailors ARE someone's family. They are sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers. And I can tell you that many soldiers have enlisted, with the hope that they will help end the cause and bring others home. Not because they chose to go off to war and die. Ask any soldier, if that was their intention, upon taking the service oath. I can tell you, it was not.
I respect anyone who feels they are not capable of serving. I respect all those that feel they are needed here more.I also respect those that remain, and strive to preserve our freedoms here. But I also am thankful for those who are willing. Never would I "volunteer" someone else to experience the trauma or danger of this war. I'm simply showing my support for those who take the mission voluntarily.
You are right, that there are many ways to show our patriotism here at home. Whichever manner you choose, it is needed. For the conditions are worsening, and as stated in my original post, a draft would only raise the anxieties of an already chaotic and struggling nation.
I understand your perspective, but maybe I can clarify: joining the military is a choice. It is an honorable choice, but a choice. No one who signs up is unaware of what the job could entail. By enlisting, they have committed to defending those who have not enlisted. Soldiers are not victims, and they will be the first ones to tell you such. They have decided to defend their nation, and they have also decided to fight wars that defend other nations, which is what they are doing now. Many non-soldiers have, by not enlisting, said that they are not willing to fight for Afghan democracy. That is a choice many have made. If you chose to play football, and I don't, I don't want the coach telling me you want a break on the bench while I take your place: you knew the requirements when you signed up for the team, and he knew how many players he had when he wrote his playbook.
Also, aside from the debatable maxim that spreading democracy in the middle east is in anyway protecting American liberties, joining the military is far from the only way to protect American freedoms. I agree that all people have the right and the responsibility to defend freedoms, but in this case, I believe a "draft dodger" could be perfectly justified in defending his freedom to not die on foreign soil for a cause he doesn't believe in. Patriots aren't always in uniform, and it is dismissive to say that there is only one cookie cutter way to love one's country or protect ones liberty.
We are not a country that demands military service, such as Israel has chosen to, because we believe forcing people to do things is a last resort. That's liberty in my book.
Also, I don't know why you put forced in quotes. It was forced in the truest sense of the word. A draft is not a recommendation or a joke. It put many young men who were not prepared mentally or physically for a war into a situation that ruined their lives or ended their lives. Not everyone is cut from the same cloth, and not everyone belongs in a jungle (or a desert) clutching a rifle and praying to god that their two months in basic training prepared them to fight for their life. Professional soldiers and draftees are very, very different soldiers.
I suspect you (like me) are female. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, remember: you're volunteering someone else if you support a draft. And since you're here, I'm guessing you aren't a soldier already.
i really wouldnt want our gov to have ant ideas
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M$Once my research showed that the favorite place for military recruiters to hang out was near schools in low-income and minority neighborhoods, my perspective changed instantly. We flex our military muscle on the backs of our children with the least amount of opportunity for success.
A nation who's parents all share in the horror of watching their children go off into war equally, is a nation that measures the value of questionable conquests much more carefully. It is not that my patriotism compells me to offer up my own children, it's that I don't think they would be offered up nearly as easily if they were being joined by those safely tucked within the walls of wealth and influence.
But, as has been stated, the questions is moot. There is no motivation for our lawmakers to discontinue exploiting a segment of our society which sees no other way out. And besides, our current version of federal governance is not positioned to have the interests of it's voters at heart. Voter influence on a national level is almost nil, despite the dog and pony show that would refute that fact. It's money they love (too cynical...change that to "need").
Which ever end of the political spectrum you may fall in, no one can deny that the US Congress is getting further and further detached from the interests of the citizenry. Our politicians are motivated by the money and influence provided them by PAC's, wealthy donors, and corporate interests. It's just a necessity of their political lives. When they are not on the floor for a vote, they are rushed by fresh-faced assistants to the phones to shake the money tree. When they are not on the hill they are at fund raising events shaking the money tree. The rest of their time they get to go to the restroom or take a meeting with someone who wants to give them money. No time to fact-find, read the bills they vote on, or (sigh) concern themselves with TV watching voters.
smttycty
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M$I believe Americans can tolerate drafts in general, when the cause is good enough. Many people got behind the war effort in WWII, and were proud to report for duty. I believe a draft for Afghanistan would be viewed in a much different light however, since the goal is less clear, the mission less defined, and even when it's all over, there is absolutely no certainty than anything will be better in the world. Bush presented this whole war as a war on "terror" and people are finally starting to understand that when you wage war on a concept, you're going to be fighting for a long, long time and will probably never win.
Personally, I think that the soldiers who have signed up for the army should bear the brunt, and no draft should be instituted. I know it's hard on them to serve long tours of duty, but they chose to fight, and knew we were at war, or knew we could be and it was their responsibility to go. Until we have run through those who wanted to fight, we should not be pulling people away from their families. My own support of the Obama administration would definitely be gone if he opened the draft.
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M$
