I have a challenge! Can you name something in your life that you have control over that money did not have a hand in getting?
I will then attempt to prove you wrong.
I genuinely hope to get a few good answers, but I've played this game before. I know that there are answers that everyone thinks will work but do not, and I know there are answers that people often overlook that will work.
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M$13 Answers
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M$Gainful? you bet, gainful is a significant understatement here.
Free? absolutely, not one dime was ever spent on maintaining my sobriety.
Within my control? yes and only in my control.
personal experience
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M$
Would you not say the cost of your sobriety was the cost of the disease and what you did and the damage that was done?
to further explain, you literally wake up every morning and tell yourself you are not going to backslide.
that is the main payment. And I can attest that all the planning and good intentions mean nothing if you did not start the day telling yourself "I'm not using."
Some one pops in unannounced bearing your poison of choice... and you did not start the day off deciding to not use, nor have you been reminding yourself? Personally, I mysteriously forget that I quit. The days that I had already included telling myself "I'm not using." are almost impossible for me to relapse on. And I have several days of each and one of the hardest drugs to shake for reference of this.
As for approving him for being correct? I don't do AA or NA. I have my ups and downs. I don't suggest staying alone in staying sober. But I do know quitting is possible by yourself if you really want it bad enough. Staying that way? heh. I don't suggest going it alone for a reason. Once again though, I am off of them. It really does come down to remembering I am an addict and I am not using every damn day.
If we look at anything close enough it will have a cost of some sort.
Everything costs us time to say the least. Specifically though no, I live with a disease and the only health care available for this disease is sobriety which is free and one simply has to choose to be sober.
I understand your plight sir. I have a similar struggle myself. And indeed that is a penniless endeavor. Or... you could even say its gaining you money not spent on drugs and alcohol.
So... two good answers so far. Nice.
Dreams and Sobriety.
Anyone else?
It cost me nothing of monetary value to posess.
It enriches my spirit beyond any monetary value.
The gainfullness of Faith is beyond measure but exsist due to its exsistance within my being.
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M$My Hmong mother and church did not accept me getting married to my white husband. My mom disowned me. (Short version)
It has been tough these last three years. Some days I still think about how life would be to have my mother in my life. I still struggle with it and wonder why I held on to missing her and loving her for so long. She did after all not accept my decision to marry. She did not support me in my most important decision in life, so far.
Growing up I always thought it would be a man that broke my heart. It was my mom that did so. Mahalo has actually got me thinking about this particular aspect of my life, and it doesn't hurt as much to think about it now, because I have thought about it so much, and have really tried to figure out how and why I could still possibly love her after all this heart ache.
I did not marry for money, looks or lust. With me, my choice was to marry for love. It's done me good so far. :o)
(Monetarily) Gainful?, yes. When I met my husband we were both college students, working part time. Now he is successful in his job, and I don't have to worry about money, (just tuition).
Gainful in life, yes. I think that I am a stronger person for doing what I did. I think it made my skin just
l l that much thicker...ok not that much, that's almost 1/2 an inch! :o) I some times think, if I can get over the pain my mom put me through, I can get through anything.
Free? Our love is completely free. :o)
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M$
a funny thought I just had:
after giving such a warm statement about love, I wonder now- how many people are confused and saying to themselves, "But don't you call yourself 'Hatred'?"
I really don't think love is free...engagement rings, weddings, anniversaries, birthdays, christmas, vacations, dates! Phew...I'm getting a headache just thinking about how much I gotta spend on love!!
@ don – again, all the things you listed are societies’ expectations. You know what we did for our last anniversary?, nothing. We just enjoyed each others company, free. Do you really have to be married to be in love, I hope not. If you think you need to get someone something material for a holiday or anniversary or birthday, then your love is petty or materialistic to a degree.
It's too bad that you think you 'have' to give those you love something in order for them to love you back.
ok... here is the brass tax question then... did you pay for any of them? In fairness to everyone here and the request of this site, I asked everyone what it costed in their life. I also said "money had a hand in", not "money was responsible".
And my short answer is: when money was needed, did you give it? If money is needed by your lover, and you simply refused, not for the sake of not having it, but simply because you didn't want to give it- do you honestly think that would go over well? Would you? Honestly. Do you refuse your lover money when he is in need?
And AA does not cost attendees a dime. It is established through a non-profit organization collecting contributions... and...
It occurs to me that I did explain the purpose of this question... and your still attempting to dismantle it.
Maybe I am wrong in what I am seeing, so now I will instead ask you: Is there a particular reason you are attempting to discredit a question that was asked you and your specific life situation history with conjectures, "what if's", and "its a cultures faults"? Culture or not, did you participate in and/or do anything that resulted in money spent that, if you hadn't, your lover might not have met or became interested in you? Because it really sounds to me like you are attempting to win against/circumvent me... and there really are not a lot of positive ways to do that. Not when your attacking a well thought out positive self-awareness exercise.
If you just like challenging people in arguing points and creditability... then by all means- carry on. I am actually okay with that. :P
sorry I haven't been responding... been chasing documents around... :P
try telling that to my girlfriend or any other women out there these days! they just keep getting more materalistic...wish there are more ladies like yourself out there!
Sir you misunderstand me. :o) I wasn’t trying to ‘attack’ anything. I like a good debate, and I also like to understand the person I am trying to debate, that’s why, as my disclaimer I said “to play devils advocate, a part I love to play”. I now think you were out looking for a ‘fight’, or a good debate, I’m still not sure which. You already had answers in your mind that would not work, ‘love’ being one of them, as you said ‘already played this game’, and “I know that there are answers that everyone thinks will work but do not”. Am I out of context? :o)
I’m not trying to discredit the question, I’m trying to understand your responses. And to do that accurately, I have to question certain points in your responses. And the most confusing thing to me so far still, is apparently, all the other answers don’t cost money at all, but love, as intangible as it is, does?
Some of the things you were talking about are based on rules of physical attraction, not on love. Things such as clothes, or having money to go out, etc. “did you participate in and/or do anything that resulted in money spent that, if you hadn't, your lover might not have met or became interested in you?”, and that proves my point, “or became interested in you?”, instead of…‘be in love with you’. Love and attraction are two different things. Yes love comes after attraction, but love by itself is no longer technically ‘attraction’. After all, why do old people stay together? Hehe, they can’t do as much, they gain weight, lose hair…etc :o)
I did not love my husband the first time I met him, nor was I thinking I might fall in love the first time I met him. I did not love the clothes he wore, or how he did his hair, I had never seen him before our first date. To be completely honest, he didn’t fit my (at the time) ‘ideal’ for an attractive man, similar, but not the same. I found the reason why I was attracted to him was that he had similar philosophy and beliefs as I did, when we talked on the phone (a phone that I had before knowing him). He (or any other man) had no influence what so ever over what car I drove, or what cell phone I had, because I still needed to talk to my friends. I purposefully wore loose jeans on our first date, to see if that would have any kind of deterrent. Nope, doesn’t look like it. :o)
“And my short answer is: when money was needed, did you give it? If money is needed by your lover, and you simply refused, not for the sake of not having it, but simply because you didn't want to give it- do you honestly think that would go over well? Would you? Honestly. Do you refuse your lover money when he is in need?”
In response to this paragraph I say, yes I would give him money as I would anything else he needed, BECAUSE I love him. I would not give it to someone I did not love. Love is a requirement for me to give this specific person something that he needs money, or sex, or food, or clothing, or anything else he needs. I don’t love Brad Pitt, therefore I will not give him money, or sex, or food, or clothing or anything Brad Pitt may need. Brad means nothing to me, my husband on the other hand means everything to me.
But here is the difference between what you think and what I think. It sounds like you think money is a requirement for love, whereas I think love is a requirement for money. That is our difference, I figured it out, what do I win? Hehe :o)
And here is the thing, I’m not trying to circumvent answering the question the way you want me to. I’m not trying to get over falling in ‘love’, my original answer was about me trying to get over my mom disowning me, because of love, yes. What I gained was love. A point I tried to make before as well. So had you read my answer the way I had intended, we would not be talking about love right now. :o)
“If you just like challenging people in arguing points and creditability... then by all means- carry on. I am actually okay with that. :P”
GOOD, because I am too. :P
@don, go find yourself a woman who has had struggles in her life :o). She’d appreciate big and small things in life. :o)
Ah... someone finally said the L word.
Sorry, as much as everyone would want love to be free... it isn't. In fact... love is the MOST costly thing. Here is where the true nature of this exercise is. This is a personal evaluation exercise. Once you understand the nature of the question and take it in to literal context, you'll quickly realize that the only answers you can give are within yourself.
Love... starting from the top:
If you met him in public you would be arrested for not buying clothes.
And of course there is hygiene.
The cost of transportation.
Going out.
Then as you come together, budgeting for what is no longer the living space of "me" but instead the living space of "us".
But enough being silly about it... there is all the work of looking out for each other, taking care of each other... worrying and taking that extra step just in case. No no my dear... love costs the most when you have it. Truly. What you have is... truthfully if your love is as strong as you describe? Your love is without the idea of expectations. And that is awesome. But it did cost money, work, and the very core of yourself to have it. And it should... because love is worth it.
So... here we are. Now everyone knows what devious plot I hatched. I secretly wanted you to look for your own means of control. The things that, if you chose to, become inexhaustible. By taking the time to consider these things, some of our life becomes a little more stable. Dreams, Sobriety, Self-Empowerment... these are things that you solely control so long as you remember you control them. And they cost nothing to you to have them.
Love is a wonderful answer, but it... well... I said earlier I wouldn't give any answers away until later... so... I'll cut me off there... hehe.
But is was a heartfelt answer... I insist people give you some votes... :P
To dispute your comments, not based solely on my experience, but other’s experiences (and to play devils advocate, a part I love to play):
Love... starting from the top:
If you met him in public you would be arrested for not buying clothes.
*1, It is only society that makes us wear clothes. Currently there are cultures and societies that do not require clothing. And what’s to say we aren’t walking around with what God gave us at home, yes we had to get to that point. Besides you need clothes for other things, like work, even strippers need them, hence the name.
And of course there is hygiene.
*See *1.
The cost of transportation.
*Hmong people walked from village to village. The only cost was food, which they had to eat to survive anyways.
Going out.
*Again, society makes that a requirement, and see *1. We didn’t meet anywhere initially, we talked on the phones that we used for other things than to talk to eachother. So I was already paying for that bill before I met him.
Then as you come together, budgeting for what is no longer the living space of "me" but instead the living space of "us".
*OK, so I have a problem with this one. :O)Are you trying to tell me it would cost more money for two people (in a relationship or not) to live together, than to live separately? If that were the case, it should be cheaper to buy two sets of groceries, two sets of furniture, two sets of pots and pans …etc, than it is to buy one? I don’t think so. With my current salary, I could not afford to live on my own and go to school, unless I took out many loans I would have to pay later. But because I live with someone and split the rent, food, furniture, electricity, heat and water bills, I can go to school.
But enough being silly about it... there is all the work of looking out for each other (I would have to look out for myself anyways), taking care of each other(I would have to take care of myself anyways)... worrying (does not cost money, it causes anxiety, and costs effort and time, but not money) and taking that extra step (what extra step?) just in case (just in case what?). No no my dear... love costs the most when you have it. Truly. What you have is... truthfully if your love is as strong as you describe? Your love is without the idea of expectations. And that is awesome. But it did cost money (you have yet to make me believe that love by itself costs money), work (does not have to cost money), and the very core of yourself (does not have to cost money) to have it. And it should... because love is worth it. (YES it is worth it, but not by monetary means.)
So... here we are. Now everyone knows what devious plot I hatched. I secretly wanted you to look for your own means of control. The things that, if you chose to, become inexhaustible. By taking the time to consider these things, some of our life becomes a little more stable. Dreams, Sobriety, Self-Empowerment... these are things that you solely control so long as you remember you control them. And they cost nothing to you to have them.
*All I have to say is, if you think that love costs money, any of the other answers cost money as well.
*Irish must have some kind of education in order to put his words in the correct sequence. Education, even public or elementary, is costly.
*Budda, did he go to AA? If he did, or others like him, someone pays for the space they use, they have to drive maybe to get to AA. They have to put clothes on, or else they would get arrested to go to AA. If he didn’t, in order to get tot his point, he had to use money right? You can’t quit drinking unless you have drunk in the past. That alcohol or beer costs money. He wouldn’t have accomplished his sobriety without having spent money on his addiction.
*Gina said she tried to pay cash. She tried to pay for services that were given to her. Since when was cash not money? :o)
*OK, so roma and bkly got me, a smile and attitude is free. But again, if you didn’t have any clothes on and you smiled at someone, I think you might get always get the reaction you want.
*And, btw, thanks for the insistence on people giving me votes. :o)
*Love in itself is free. I don’t pay my husband for me to cry on his shoulder, I don’t pay him for therapy, I don’t pay him to look at me with adoring eyes, I don’t pay him to tickle me, or to cook for me (yes I pay for the food, but I have eat anyways).
LOL at your second comment. I had to think about it. :o)
Yes I did say my choice was to marry for love, but my main topic of discussion is to get over what my mom did to me. She could have disowned me for my choice in education, or moving to live somewhere else. This statement clarifies it "Growing up I always thought it would be a man that broke my heart. It was my mom that did so. " and "I some times think, if I can get over the pain my mom put me through, I can get through anything." - Love was just my situation.
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M$
I have control over my own creativity and am a better person for it.
I can write whenever I like (and i see what you're going to say, the computer cost(s) $$ or even the pen and paper).
However, I have control over my ideas and dreams, and by virtue of simply having them, I'm a better person for it. While I realize that indeed, it costs $$ to achieve them, the fact that they give me hope and ambition are two very powerful, and free, motivators.
Wonderful question.
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M$Over the past 5 or 6 years we have had alot of trying and emotional problems to overcome. All I have gone through has made my anxiety disorder get completely out of control. I recently decided to go to a local mental health center to help get my life back and of course they do not accept my insurance and will not allow me to pay cash. I had one visit, and was told I can not go back. Funny they accept public aid, but will not accept cash.
I decided my recovery depends on me and me alone. I have been through this before and have recovered significantly, on my own. I know medicines can help and Xanax has worked for me, but I know that is not an option right now. I have the strength within myself to get better.
I know what I need to do, visit the places that cause me level 10 panic attacks and try to stay through those feelings. If it was just as easy to do as it is to say.
Thats ok, I made a decision that if there isn't anyone out there to help me, I could and will conquer this on my own, with no money being involved, just my personal strength.
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M$
hmm... gonna have to do this all public-like... bummer
tattooist_jd on yahoo messenger
Thank you, that is sweet! I love getting to know members here at Mahalo.
3 for 3. Smart crowd this evening. Heh.
And... additionally... would you like to talk about it? I'm in and out at times, but I would be willing to lend an ear if you like. I will be sending you my yahoo messenger directly if you do need to talk.
So... Dreams, Sobriety, and Self-Empowerment. Rock on
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M$
Um... individualism. Is that what you were trying to say? Individualism is... a good answer. Got to be careful though... individualism is one step from being a poser-goth or worse- emo.
I kid... sorta. I myself am a true goth. I prize individuality and uniqueness... but that is not a pass to rewrite everything to a tune you created. Most of the world is done. Many things are done not because we are sheep, but because its been tried and in some regard, perfected. It was once stated that a perfect design is not judged by whether or not anything needs to be added, but whether or not anything needs to be taken away. Once it reached that point, the design is flawless.
I'm all for odd-man-out personalities, just not when you let thought and idea decide reason. It should always influence reason, but not rule it.
So... rockin' answer!
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M$
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M$You can leave an optional "tip" with Mahalo's virtual currency, Mahalo Dollars. If you are asking a difficult question that might require some research, or if you'd like a wide variety of feedback, a higher tip often leads to more answers to your question.
M$You can leave an optional "tip" with Mahalo's virtual currency, Mahalo Dollars. If you are asking a difficult question that might require some research, or if you'd like a wide variety of feedback, a higher tip often leads to more answers to your question.
M$What makes me think I have control ? their actions in response to any inquiries I may have or things I may need help with doing. A gentleman that I met through a mutual friend, was over visiting that friend at the same time I was over there and I was having problems with my car... this guy went out of his way to help me, and even tho I had it under control and it was being fixed, he would often inquire about the situation to our mutual friend and offer his assistance, and said that if there came a time in the future that I needed his help, to by all means, call on him. I took him up on that offer some time later down the road, and his girlfriend was not cool with it at all, but I did not know this and he did not tell me. One day when I called him, she later called me back and told me she didn't appreciate him doing these things for me, and asked me to please leave him alone, which I did, and even tho I made it perfectly clear to him that I had no interest in him in that way and he always maintained that the feeling was mutual, he would often put his relationship with his girlfriend in risk of jeopardy just to come over and see how I was doing or if I needed help with my car, etc... I didn't understand why he did this and turned him away and insisted he leave because I knew she didn't want him over, but he would just do it again at some other time. I am not a home wrecker, and would not want my man doing that to me, so I was empathetic and respectful of her request and never compromised that, but he once came by or called and told me not to worry about her getting mad, because they broke up and aren't together anymore... so I allowed him to pop into my work to say hi periodically, sometimes go for a beer, or hang out at my place or our friends, sometimes his, but one day she showed up at the friends house we were at and just went off, they had never broke up... I didn't understand why he went to great lengths to hang out with me knowing there was never anything other than friends between us, and never would be. It wasn't like he had a thing for me and confessed his feelings, spilled his guts and I rejected him, so he was hung up on me, no , not at all... I casually mentioned in conversation that I hoped his girlfriend didn't think I was trying to break them up, cause I was not interested in him in that way, and he agreed, he wasn't romantically interested in me either.
This is only one example but ya, the cost/benefit analysis some men perform must come up with some kind of calculation that they feel they benefit more than it costs them, whatever the risk, if any, they seem to disregard in exchange for my friendship/company. I say this with all humility, I am not boasting, or find it flattering... When I speak of "control" I do not mean I order them around or make them do whatever I say... I also make decisions that are not to my benefit whatsoever, like decline their offer to come by to help with this , that, or the other... I don't come across as needy or helpless... I just have a lot of things going on, something is always breaking, or my dog is loose and running around the neighborhood, or I am bit by a spider and need a ride to the hospital, my water bed bursts and is leaking all over the place.. I do not currently have a boyfriend, so a lot of things I try to do myself, but when a male friend see's me doing it or hears me talking about it, they offer to assist... that is basically it... but I decline their offers to help me with something, even when they don't have girlfriends or any other obligations. One male friend of mine went to the courthouse and paid a fine I owed and didn't tell me, and when it came to my attention, I asked the judge to mail it back to them, and re-enter the judgment against me as my debt and responsibility in which he obliged, so this is something these guys want to do on their own free will without me evoking such a response out of them, I don't flirt , charm or mislead them, or make them think there is a possibility of anything in the future... sad to say, but I guess they just honestly enjoy my company.. the only thing that comes to mind as to why they are so willing to give or delegate themselves to my projects or want to hang out all the time is that I am a funny person, and make people laugh often, so I believe that could be the only possible reason, but i'm not going to alter my personality or modify my sense of humor for the purpose to control someone's behavior or reaction towards me, that would be insincere and certainly would present a side of me that is not authentic. I just be myself and that's the only thing I know how to do... it doesn't really bother me that they are like this, it's not a problem or an issue, just the guy who had a girlfriend, so I'm not complaining, it's just that I do believe I "control" (there goes that word again, I hate to use it in this aspect, but i can't deny that it's true, I am in control)
I am actually a bit taken back by such a revelation, but I must admit, it's the only area, that I certainly control in my life, when everything else seems to be out of control or not within my ability to control. I simply don't understand why that is. and no longer question it. If anybody wants to put in their 2 cents, your opinions are welcomed. Thanks in advance for doing so. :o)
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M$
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JD-Hatred/156766201010872
heh... look at me- spamming my own thread. But seriously, my fan page (yes I made my own fan page- sue me. EVERYONE should be a fan of themselves... it was the nature of this question)
Or hit me up on yahoo messenger: tattooist_jd
and really? that goes for anyone
Wow! jd, that is amazing! where do you draw all your insight from? getting a non-biased opinion from a man's perspective, whom is also able to be objective is quite refreshing! as I am certain any opinion given to me by any male friends would probably be something they just want me to hear; or think that I want to hear, rather than
what their true beliefs are in regards to this matter.
I am absolutely thrilled by the notion that your input and feedback is genuine and realistically accurate, for the reasons I stated above. After reading your perspective the first time, I was blown away by your candor (not at all offensive, actually, I couldn't help but feel somewhat flattered to a certain degree :) although it had no bearing on my opinion of your analogy nor did it influence my perception of your thoughts on the matter. But I did have to read it a couple more times, not because I didn't understand it, but merely because I needed to thoroughly absorb it, reflect back on what you had to say and then re-assess my own opinion now that I had a fresh outlook to refer to, which ultimately produced a final analysis that lead me to the realization that you have introduced to me ideas that I never even thought to consider before, but now that you have brought them to my attention, I can clearly see how it all comes together... and I would have to say that I agree with you on almost everything you presented to me.... so THANK YOU for that!! and I also thank you very much for taking my disposition into consideration when determining whether or not my answer met the criteria laid out in the challenge description in order to qualify for acceptance. I also appreciate that you allowed it and found it to be acceptable. Also, after taking everything you have presented into consideration, it opened up an opportunity for me to evaluate myself further to see what role my disposition and demeanor plays, not only in this situation, but in other areas of my life as well, but adhering to the same ideas set forth in your analysis and I came up with some interesting comparisons which I'm happy to elaborate on because your response to my answer evoked additional thoughts, not on the subject of my answer, but on the subject of yours. I'm just no sure if I should elaborate on that further since this is a challenge you have proposed for reasons other than what our opinions are in this matter. I think it's referred to as hi-jacking a thread (?) Is there a proper etiquette that should be implemented in regards to continued discussion in a thread on a site such as Mahalo?
your genuinely kind personality.
I'll allow it! good answer.
If you want me to break it down for you... as you asked:
you are attractive. To that end, you will always draw men (and sometimes women) to you.
Now, at this, you would normally have women getting mad at you. However, as you say, you go out of you way to reimburse people, instead of taking the good deed and running. This in turn makes people want to continue being nice because you don't leave them feeling used but instead feeling appreciated.
The fact that your hot and not a bitch helps to. Sad truth is, the more attractive someone is, sometimes the less attractive the personality is. Not always, but enough to take notice when kind and attractive are both present. It's a sort of personality deficit where the attractiveness of a person actually controls the amount they have to try in order to accomplish their goals. Hence the term "dating out of your league" is some times applied.
Tack on a good sense of humor and you become a universally approachable gal.
Looks, so it draws their attention. Forthright and considerate, so people don't feel like you would rather they not approach you or feel like you will use and discard them. Good humor, thus you are actually fun once they are there.
As the saying goes- "Men want you, women want to be you."
I suggest keep on with your method of handling life and be thankful you have your unique talents and traits... and that they didn't seem to corrupt you.
Also, in light of the times you are helped not matching what you would imagine to be the times you would be hit on... that is the understanding and belief that approaching you anyway BUT in a kind and civil manner will destroy the change they might have. Chances are you are being hit on a lot more than you think, but they see that less than noble behavior will wreck them even having a chance and may even feel guilty for trying to make a move because they only have lustful reasons.
OMG! I was taking a sip of my water when I read, "look at me spamming my own thread!" and I totally lost it and sprayed water everywhere! it even came out of my nose! hahaha!!
Damn that was funny! then I read on and start crackin' up again at "YES, I have my own fan page...." hahahaha! your too funny dude :o) But I totally agree with you when you say everybody should be a fan of their selves (I don't think that's verbatim, but you know what I mean) I always say, "I'm my biggest fan"
One thing that's totally tacky, and I realize this, but I don't do it on purpose, and that is, I laugh at my own jokes, hahahaha! <---see ? Omg, I totally didn't do that on purpose, no pun intended, I swear... I mean, that wasn't even really a joke anyway, but I also noticed above, in my first paragraph, I did it there too! hahaha!
It kinda sucks because I'm an aspiring comedian, but there's no way in hell I'd ever make it in stand-up doin' that sh*t... the thing is... I laugh a lot just in normal conversation... I'm not necessarily telling jokes, it's just that the subject matter I find myself in conversation with usually gives me the opportunity to say something funny... so it's not like I'm sitting around talking about serial killers or world hunger, or things of that nature... so often times, I find myself in pleasant, light-hearted conversations where it's likely to say something that rouses a laugh or two, but I find myself laughing too at what I just said. Is that considered laughing at your own jokes if I'm really not telling an actual joke per se'? ------- ok, right here, I just refrained from typing hahaha (even though I just turned around and did it there, hahaha!) because I just caught myself laughing after I wrote that... weird.
But ya,
I'm definitely one of my biggest fans, and quickly becoming one of yours as well :)
well... that is a good answer... several answers. heh... rock on. Some points technically do not hit the mark but this is as a whole another fine example of self-empowerment