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philipy
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philipy  |  February 01, 2009 01:37 AM
If we're physically weaker than our ancestors it's probably because we don't do as much physical exertion as they did. The same reason people that go to the gym are stronger than people that don't. Except instead of going to gyms, earlier generations did a lot more physcial labor.

However, I don't know any evidence that we could make generalisations about being less strong than earlier generations. For example it's a fact that people's hieghts have gone up in the last 100 years, due to being better nourished.

Anyway, there is no rule that says the physically strongest are bound to leave more offspring than others necessarily. It all depends on what, in a given environment, makes people more likely to survive, more likely to find a mate, more likely to raise children, more likely to see those childten survive, thrive, and have children of their own.

In human communities, physical strength doesn't necessarily have the biggest bearing on survival chances. Being intelligent, being valued by the community, being hard-working etc might well have a bigger impact.
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offthedome
offthedome  |  February 01, 2009 08:03 PM
It's actually not a exercise-related issue. We are actually physically weaker than our ancestors. The average person can't achieve the type of strength that the average human ancestor could. Our bone structures show it, as do evidence about our lifestyles eons ago.

The point is not that physical strength has the biggest bearing on survival chances. The point is, it does have an effect. Despite that, we have become weaker and less cardiovascularly able than our ancestors. The question is, why have we become weaker and less cardiovascularly fit despite this?
philipy
philipy  |  February 05, 2009 06:13 AM
What is your evidence for saying "The average person can't achieve the type of strength that the average human ancestor could"?

Athletic records have been broken ever since they were invented, average heights, body size etc are up.
philipy
philipy  |  February 05, 2009 06:18 AM
As for the idea that if factor X has a bearing on survival, therefore it shoud always increase... that would only be true if there were no trade-offs. In reality there are many possible "design" choices. You might as well argue that mice shouldn't exist since rats are bigger and stronger.
offthedome
offthedome  |  February 06, 2009 12:10 PM
My evidence is basically everything I've read that compares our ancestors to us. There is ample evidence, such as bone structure and tendon connection points, etc. I'm aware that that records are being broken, but that's more a fact of increased training skill. Further, these amazing feats are extremely rare, for example the average man/woman can't run a mile even half the speed of the male/female world record holder (3:43/4:12).

About your second comment, I'm saying the opposite of the fact that if X has a bearing on survival it should always increase. My counterexamples are our physical strength and cardiovascular ability. My question is, why is that true? If it's an issue of trade-offs, then what are the trade-offs? If it's something else, then what is it?
philipy
philipy  |  February 06, 2009 04:45 PM
Cite some of this evidence that you've read, so I know exactly what you are talking about, and what the data is.

When something sounds unbelieveable, 80% of the time it's because some populariser took selective bits that sounded interesting out of a study they didn't properly understand.

As for things always going in one direction... selection doesn't happen on one trait in isolation, but on the whole package. Wolves can evolve into foxes, because that works better in a different environment. Birds might generally become better fliers over time, but some also become flightless.

Flight is a perfect example of something that is costly, and not worth the cost in some environments.

Physical strength also has a cost, which is why your body builds muscle just where you've shown you need it not all over the body for the hell of it.

On top of all that, in a given species, it's perfectly normal for there to be different subgroups following different strategies. Big and strong vs smaller and more agile, aggresive alpha vs submissive follower etc.

If you are actually interested in finding the answer rather than being right about your pet theory, it'll be easy for you to find the explanation.

If you are keen to believe what you want to believe, obviously no-one will ever convince you.
bbrookin
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bbrookin  |  February 01, 2009 08:31 PM
Lifestyles has changed dramatically. We aren't obligated to walk long distances, plow via horse or ox, bring in the wood or coal, etc. Physically demanding jobs are often automated. Survival now depends on having foresight to find appropriate places to live, make choices about what to buy for food and clothing, and finding a job to provide the means to make a living.
I believe physical strength has less to do with survival now. Knowledge, wealth, and other assets may be more significant factors for current lifestyles.
If we are able to become less fit than our ancestors - and I question this - I would attribute it to beginning demanding physical labor beginning early in life and continuing through for as long as possible. Physical strength is as much nurture as nature.
source(s):
Genealogical studies
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