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I think that if she identifies herself as a woman and has always done so they should leave her alone. There is no reason to discriminate against someone for being a mixed or transgender athlete. If they wish to be jerks and discriminate then it needs to be written into all rule books that everyone must pass gender testing. I have seen many cross dressers who pass for the opposite gender, and couldn't be identified otherwise. People need to take a step back and accept Caster Semanya for what she is: a person.
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albanian
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Were that true, then the person wouldn't be of a different race; they'd be of a different species!
In fact, that's one of the things some people believe might have been different enough about neandertals to qualify them as a different species of human, and not just a race. Specifically, female neaderthals seem to show some characteristics of muscle form and strength that normally only show up in our species when the individual is a male loaded up with testosterone, yet the female neandertals were still female; for their species.
Secondly, it's perfectly legit to do a simple DNA test to see if Semenya is an effeminite male or a butch female. If there's two X chromosomes, then she's female, and if there's an X and a Y chromosome, then he's male.
What's interesting is very rare polyploid combinations like two X and one Y chromosomes.
In that case, the organizing comittes are going to have to come up with some policies in terms of where they draw the line between male and female, if they haven't already, but in any case, it's no more racist/sexist to have an athlete DNA-tested for their genetic sex than it is to have them tested for performance-enhasing drugs.
Or do people think that drug-testing is racist/sexist too?
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By definition, I think it is definitely sexist (discrimination based on gender), but I don't think that was your point. I think your question was more directed at the motives of the people involved (i.e., were those involved going after Semenya because of how she looked?).
Since we don't have insight into the thoughts of the individuals the best we can do is to look at the facts. In this case, the IAAF said they were investigating because she improved personal bests by significant margins.
If these results were the impetus for some standard drug tests which then led to questions of gender then I think the motive feels like it is more in the right frame. However, if these results were just an excuse to test out rumors (that reports suggest have surrounded Semenya for years), then the motive seems suspect.
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However, considering the chances of having both characteristics in today's genetic mixes is a relevant issue. Not one easily decided. But in this specific case (if in fact that is her situation), personal choice (hers) is the deciding factor in my opinion.
But if I was born male and want to be female (achieved by surgery and/or hormone therapy) that's an issue for the courts to decide.
If it was up to me, my personal choice doesn't change nature. I can jump up and down all I want and call myself a woman but they still won't let me into the woman's restroom without a hassle. Which may involve a test to prove it.
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___
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6188775.stm
Indian athlete fails gender test
A top Indian woman athlete who won a silver medal at a recent regional championship has failed a gender test, officials say.
Santhi Soundararajan, who took the silver in the women's 800m race at the Asian Games in Doha, has been stripped of her medal, reports say.
___
Also, a Dutch athlete (Foekje Dillema) was tested back in 1950, and failed.
She was expelled. It was recently discovered she has two X chromosomes to each Y.
http://www.24oranges.nl/tag/gender/
So no, this is not racism, nor sexism, it is one of those standard procedures to keep the competition equal. Only women are allowed to compete in the women competitions.
Source(s):
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Track & Field if a beautiful sport, but it has gotten tainted with all these types of allegations, and that's really unfortunate as it could be the really one true sport, where pure athletes excelled and made us feel good about being human. Not only does it cause us to stop and admire physical achievement but it also reunites all the races and countries in peaceful events.
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BUT
I have not seen her vagina so therefore I cannot really say
until I get some hardcore proof I guess I will be on the wall about this
and for the issue about the racism
look, racism is defined as what?
saying that you are superior to someone based off of racial differences, right?
or maybe it's geographical adaptations and not 'race' as we think of it.
of course troglodytes, the cave man and woman had particular facial features that the African, original human being, did and does not, but that's only because of differences amongst the hueman race.
human beings nowadays come in differenct sizes, shapes and a whole bunch of assorted colors and flavors so that's irrelevant at the moment
besides she is a runner and most female runners tend to be more "masculine" or muscular which is usually a characteristic of a man. hard facial features she most probably acquired not because of her "race" but because of her conditioning.
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Answered Question
M$2.85
August 19, 2009 05:52 PM
South African runner Caster Semenya forced to take gender test to prove she's a woman. Some say this is racist/sexist. What do you think?
There is buzz in the media that Semenya "might suffer from a rare condition in which individuals can exhibit both male and female chromosomes," but that she has always identified herself as a woman.
According to the Daily Mail, in Semenya's home country of South Africa, fans are leaving comments on websites, saying:
"She looks manly, of course, but is she the only athlete who looks manly? I don't think so... Would they have tested her if she wasn't African?"
"Our Caster is a woman, these European people cannot handle the fact that an African can actually be a champion in something and will always try to bring us down."
What do you think of the gender verification testing that Caster Semenya must undergo?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1207661/World-athletics-sensation-Claims-emerge-South-Africas-female-800m-hope-Caster-Semenya-really-MAN.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/8210471.stm
According to the Daily Mail, in Semenya's home country of South Africa, fans are leaving comments on websites, saying:
"She looks manly, of course, but is she the only athlete who looks manly? I don't think so... Would they have tested her if she wasn't African?"
"Our Caster is a woman, these European people cannot handle the fact that an African can actually be a champion in something and will always try to bring us down."
What do you think of the gender verification testing that Caster Semenya must undergo?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1207661/World-athletics-sensation-Claims-emerge-South-Africas-female-800m-hope-Caster-Semenya-really-MAN.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/8210471.stm
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| August 19, 2009 11:54 PM |
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albanian
August 20, 2009 02:28 AM
No, that approach is fine for civil rights and the like, but it is not appropriate for athletic contests. It would be extremely unfair for the other athletes.
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dp
September 11, 2009 11:59 AM
It should not be about how she identifies herself. She is sitting on an international platform, and if there are questions about her gender identity, clarity should be sought. stop hiding behind racial cards or any sort of discrimination, lets face the facts fellow Africans, be dispassionate and accept the truth that lies beyond physical examinations!!
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Other Answers (10)
August 19, 2009 07:11 PM
Hmm... Yes she looks like a man but is a test really needed to prove this? Maybe they're not being racist. Maybe they just wanted a document or a proof though a test isn't really necessary to prove that she's a woman (if you know what I mean). It's not all the time that Europeans put them (South African) down. At first glance, she looks like a man to me, not because she's African but because she's so muscled plus her voice sounded a little big. But I'm not being racist, I'm just speaking based on what I see. So I think this is where the documents or proof that she's a woman comes in. So that no one will ever doubt that she's a woman.
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August 19, 2009 07:11 PM
First off, how in the world is it "racist" to identify the sex of a person? Does somebody think that physical expression of a human's sex changes with race? Were that true, then the person wouldn't be of a different race; they'd be of a different species!
In fact, that's one of the things some people believe might have been different enough about neandertals to qualify them as a different species of human, and not just a race. Specifically, female neaderthals seem to show some characteristics of muscle form and strength that normally only show up in our species when the individual is a male loaded up with testosterone, yet the female neandertals were still female; for their species.
Secondly, it's perfectly legit to do a simple DNA test to see if Semenya is an effeminite male or a butch female. If there's two X chromosomes, then she's female, and if there's an X and a Y chromosome, then he's male.
What's interesting is very rare polyploid combinations like two X and one Y chromosomes.
In that case, the organizing comittes are going to have to come up with some policies in terms of where they draw the line between male and female, if they haven't already, but in any case, it's no more racist/sexist to have an athlete DNA-tested for their genetic sex than it is to have them tested for performance-enhasing drugs.
Or do people think that drug-testing is racist/sexist too?
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August 19, 2009 09:59 PM
I wonder just how the committe would rule on this? It'll be fascinating to follow... I mean, how do you define a female? If she has (not to be too blunt) female reproductive organs is she not still female, even if she has this genetic difference? Is it so different to those athletes who train at higher altitudes vs. those who don't? Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I'll be following it!
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August 19, 2009 10:38 PM
Strictly speaking, human physiologists define a male as someone with an X and a Y, and a female as someone with two X's, even though it happens that they won't look like a male or female at all. The reason is because the X and Y chromosomes don't really direct the development of the body into a male or female form, rather, the mother's pituitary is supposed to sense which sex her child is, and then her system sends homrmon signals to the embryo, telling it how to develop.
If the mother's system sense the genetic sex fo the child wrong and sends signals to orchestrate embryonic development for the other sex, then, depending upon which trimester it happens: 1) If the mother's body think's a genetically male embryo is female in the first trimester, the embryo-fetus will develop to look completely female, and the only thing odd will be that as a full-grown women, she'll be sterile. 2) If the mother's body gets confused in the last trimester, then the child will have a body that matches its genetic sex, but a brain for the other, so you can get a guy who thinks like a woman, or a woman of the real tomboy sort who plays just like the boys (they're the ones most likely to want gender-reasignment surgery, to get their body's to match their minds). 3) If it happens some time in the second trimester, that's when you can get those cases of hermaphroditism where the person exibits physical and mental characteristics of both.
So, although it's the father who determines the genetic sex of a child, it's the mother's hormone system during pregnancy to determine the physical and mental sex of the child.
Note that (believe it or not) this doesn't necessarily determine sexual orientation. It definitly tips the balance, but it does not determine it.
What we've been talking about is determination of sexual *identity*, but sexual *orientation* is a behavior that's imprinted later, after birth, between the ages of 17 months to 3.5 years, when the limbic system (mesocortex) of the brain is imprinting, and although orientation is not determined by genetics or in the womb, once the imprinting has jelled, it's as set as if it had been determined genetically or in the womb.
It's common to get sexual identity and sexual orientation mixed up, but they're not the same thing.
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If the mother's system sense the genetic sex fo the child wrong and sends signals to orchestrate embryonic development for the other sex, then, depending upon which trimester it happens: 1) If the mother's body think's a genetically male embryo is female in the first trimester, the embryo-fetus will develop to look completely female, and the only thing odd will be that as a full-grown women, she'll be sterile. 2) If the mother's body gets confused in the last trimester, then the child will have a body that matches its genetic sex, but a brain for the other, so you can get a guy who thinks like a woman, or a woman of the real tomboy sort who plays just like the boys (they're the ones most likely to want gender-reasignment surgery, to get their body's to match their minds). 3) If it happens some time in the second trimester, that's when you can get those cases of hermaphroditism where the person exibits physical and mental characteristics of both.
So, although it's the father who determines the genetic sex of a child, it's the mother's hormone system during pregnancy to determine the physical and mental sex of the child.
Note that (believe it or not) this doesn't necessarily determine sexual orientation. It definitly tips the balance, but it does not determine it.
What we've been talking about is determination of sexual *identity*, but sexual *orientation* is a behavior that's imprinted later, after birth, between the ages of 17 months to 3.5 years, when the limbic system (mesocortex) of the brain is imprinting, and although orientation is not determined by genetics or in the womb, once the imprinting has jelled, it's as set as if it had been determined genetically or in the womb.
It's common to get sexual identity and sexual orientation mixed up, but they're not the same thing.
August 19, 2009 07:20 PM
I think calling it racist seems a bit far fetched - several of the other top runners (Kenya's Pamela Jelimo or Morroco's Hasna Benhassi) are African. By definition, I think it is definitely sexist (discrimination based on gender), but I don't think that was your point. I think your question was more directed at the motives of the people involved (i.e., were those involved going after Semenya because of how she looked?).
Since we don't have insight into the thoughts of the individuals the best we can do is to look at the facts. In this case, the IAAF said they were investigating because she improved personal bests by significant margins.
If these results were the impetus for some standard drug tests which then led to questions of gender then I think the motive feels like it is more in the right frame. However, if these results were just an excuse to test out rumors (that reports suggest have surrounded Semenya for years), then the motive seems suspect.
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August 20, 2009 12:14 AM
How could it be racist? If a woman competes in a women's event it's fair to ask and require that the entrants be of the appropriate gender. Questioning that detail is fair game. It's in the rules. No more racist than a drug test. However, considering the chances of having both characteristics in today's genetic mixes is a relevant issue. Not one easily decided. But in this specific case (if in fact that is her situation), personal choice (hers) is the deciding factor in my opinion.
But if I was born male and want to be female (achieved by surgery and/or hormone therapy) that's an issue for the courts to decide.
If it was up to me, my personal choice doesn't change nature. I can jump up and down all I want and call myself a woman but they still won't let me into the woman's restroom without a hassle. Which may involve a test to prove it.
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August 20, 2009 02:31 AM
She's not the only female athlete who looks masculine; but, she's not the only female athlete to be tested. It used to be mainly Russian and East European female athletes who were challenged and tested. But it still happens from time to time with athletes around the world. There are plenty of black female athletes these days, it's silly to call racism when one happens to be challenge for something or other.
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August 20, 2009 04:42 AM
These gender tests actually happen quite often, and sometimes the athlete fails. Here is a recent example: ___
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6188775.stm
Indian athlete fails gender test
A top Indian woman athlete who won a silver medal at a recent regional championship has failed a gender test, officials say.
Santhi Soundararajan, who took the silver in the women's 800m race at the Asian Games in Doha, has been stripped of her medal, reports say.
___
Also, a Dutch athlete (Foekje Dillema) was tested back in 1950, and failed.
She was expelled. It was recently discovered she has two X chromosomes to each Y.
http://www.24oranges.nl/tag/gender/
So no, this is not racism, nor sexism, it is one of those standard procedures to keep the competition equal. Only women are allowed to compete in the women competitions.
Source(s):
Mentioned in text
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August 20, 2009 03:49 PM
It's not racism, it's just unfair, if it is confirmed that she has male DNA. Track & Field if a beautiful sport, but it has gotten tainted with all these types of allegations, and that's really unfortunate as it could be the really one true sport, where pure athletes excelled and made us feel good about being human. Not only does it cause us to stop and admire physical achievement but it also reunites all the races and countries in peaceful events.
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August 20, 2009 04:01 PM
ok now she looks to me to be a man at first glance and the deepness of her voice sure as hell did not quench my thirst lol. if anything it added to the possibility that she might be male. BUT
I have not seen her vagina so therefore I cannot really say
until I get some hardcore proof I guess I will be on the wall about this
and for the issue about the racism
look, racism is defined as what?
saying that you are superior to someone based off of racial differences, right?
or maybe it's geographical adaptations and not 'race' as we think of it.
of course troglodytes, the cave man and woman had particular facial features that the African, original human being, did and does not, but that's only because of differences amongst the hueman race.
human beings nowadays come in differenct sizes, shapes and a whole bunch of assorted colors and flavors so that's irrelevant at the moment
besides she is a runner and most female runners tend to be more "masculine" or muscular which is usually a characteristic of a man. hard facial features she most probably acquired not because of her "race" but because of her conditioning.
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