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Maybe god *is* the universe.
Maybe our universe is one of many, nested universes, and we are perhaps an experiment being watched over by a vast, cosmic, scientist (aka God), who resides in the other universe. In that case, who created that universe, and created the scientist? It's turtles all the way down.
The Bible says that no one created god, he was always here. It's something that, if you choose to believe, you accept on faith. No way to prove it, does not make sense with the "logical/rational" mind, but is is an answer to your question.
Tags: religion, philosophy, creation, cosmology, god
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It's intellectually unsatisfying, and yet a great many people feel comfortable with the notion. It's an argument that goes back to Aristotle (even before Christianity). It's not that much more of an intellectual leap than Euclid's axioms: where do they come from? What's so great about the ability to draw a line between two points?
Of course, Euclid's postulates are a lot simpler than God. Partly, that's because "God" is mixed up with many other religious notions. Aristotle's Prime Mover is much simpler than the God of the Bible, who speaks to people and gives specific orders. All the Prime Mover does is kick the universe off.
Unfortunately, from a scientific standpoint, the Prime Mover doesn't tell you anything. It just assigns a name to the problem. You know none of the properties of the prime mover except those you assign it.
Still... right now it's as much as you can do. Other cosmological theories all have blind spots. Calling them the "prime mover" is poor science in the sense that it's incurious, and identifying the prime mover with the Christian or any other particular notion of God is simply a fallacy. Still, it's not surprising that people who crave an answer should be content with that fallacy.
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To discuss the God of the Bible one has to be educated in what is written there. Just as the best person to discuss why human DNA could never have evolved from a mollusk is someone who is thoroughly educated in genetics - not just an armchair evolutionist (or atheist).
The Creator does not need a creator to exist. The concept of Time is a human one. The universe doesn't have a clock, that's a human thing too (ref. "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe" by Douglas Adams). It is what it is whether we understand it or not.
I have benefited more from my ability to wrap my brain around the concept of God having no beginning than a flat denial of the concept. People denied the idea the Earth was round and orbited the Sun because they didn't want to imagine it. We know how intelligent that was now that we know better. Try thinking outside your current ability to imagine. Enjoy where your mind takes you. It's a gift from the mollusk so many evolved beings choose to ignore.
I believe that science would be so much further along if "religious" information wasn't ignored on principal. But that's another thread. :)
http://www.mahalo.com/answers/belief-and-thought/theology-should-recognize-science-but-should-science-recognize-theology-1
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August 05, 2009 04:04 PM
Interesting koan. Clearly, no way to give a "true" answer to this, but I'll give a couple thoughts: Maybe god *is* the universe.
Maybe our universe is one of many, nested universes, and we are perhaps an experiment being watched over by a vast, cosmic, scientist (aka God), who resides in the other universe. In that case, who created that universe, and created the scientist? It's turtles all the way down.
The Bible says that no one created god, he was always here. It's something that, if you choose to believe, you accept on faith. No way to prove it, does not make sense with the "logical/rational" mind, but is is an answer to your question.
Tags: religion, philosophy, creation, cosmology, god
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August 05, 2009 04:41 PM
It's a cop-out to simply say that "god is", but it does allow you to push all of the intellectual difficulties into one box. Anything you don't understand can be attributed to the "prime mover". It's intellectually unsatisfying, and yet a great many people feel comfortable with the notion. It's an argument that goes back to Aristotle (even before Christianity). It's not that much more of an intellectual leap than Euclid's axioms: where do they come from? What's so great about the ability to draw a line between two points?
Of course, Euclid's postulates are a lot simpler than God. Partly, that's because "God" is mixed up with many other religious notions. Aristotle's Prime Mover is much simpler than the God of the Bible, who speaks to people and gives specific orders. All the Prime Mover does is kick the universe off.
Unfortunately, from a scientific standpoint, the Prime Mover doesn't tell you anything. It just assigns a name to the problem. You know none of the properties of the prime mover except those you assign it.
Still... right now it's as much as you can do. Other cosmological theories all have blind spots. Calling them the "prime mover" is poor science in the sense that it's incurious, and identifying the prime mover with the Christian or any other particular notion of God is simply a fallacy. Still, it's not surprising that people who crave an answer should be content with that fallacy.
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August 05, 2009 06:42 PM
People have to accept the "big bang theory" on faith too, but you don't hear many people admit it - or care. To discuss the God of the Bible one has to be educated in what is written there. Just as the best person to discuss why human DNA could never have evolved from a mollusk is someone who is thoroughly educated in genetics - not just an armchair evolutionist (or atheist).
The Creator does not need a creator to exist. The concept of Time is a human one. The universe doesn't have a clock, that's a human thing too (ref. "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe" by Douglas Adams). It is what it is whether we understand it or not.
I have benefited more from my ability to wrap my brain around the concept of God having no beginning than a flat denial of the concept. People denied the idea the Earth was round and orbited the Sun because they didn't want to imagine it. We know how intelligent that was now that we know better. Try thinking outside your current ability to imagine. Enjoy where your mind takes you. It's a gift from the mollusk so many evolved beings choose to ignore.
I believe that science would be so much further along if "religious" information wasn't ignored on principal. But that's another thread. :)
http://www.mahalo.com/answers/belief-and-thought/theology-should-recognize-science-but-should-science-recognize-theology-1
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